1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

[rdutnell]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Man, you guys keep coming up with GREAT stuff! This time it is Scott’s suggestion and supporting site link. Awesome!

I LIKE IT!!! I don’t think it will be that difficult to change either, when I can get the time. I’ve analyzed over 70 samples in the last few days. So now I have to (get to) start sorting it out. Another case of the yin-yang of life.

THANKS once again Scott!

[rdutnell]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

UPDATE 122

Good Afternoon Guys!

It is hard to believe that it has already been a month since I last posted an update on Batfish. I’ve had data to process and took the train trip to San Diego for a conference that included a tour of USS Midway. It has been a busy month and I have had very little free time for modeling. However, before leaving for San Diego, I had a go at the Dashboard, I just haven’t had time to post it.

I started by making a 0.03” platform for the dash. (This would be modified later.)



I decided to use the pictures of Batfish’s dashboard I have to layout the dashboard on the model. So, next I made the unknown (to me) object on the starboard side of the dash. I built it up in layers and joined them together as shown in the images below.











Next, I did the object next to it. Again I don’t know what it is, but I think it may be the intercom for communication. In any case, I built it up in layers too, using extruded circles and polylines to make the solid shapes…









…And then joining the parts together.



The outer face was made with a sliced sphere…



…Inside another sphere sliced like an avocado.



I joined it all together and moved it up a bit.



…Then joined it to the dashboard.



The TDC was next and like the other objects on the dashboard, I built it up in layers.













Since I was using Batfish pictures to layout the dash, I also used them to design the TDC, as you can see in the images below.







At this point, even though I plan to redo the top part of the TDC, I sliced off the port side of the dashboard to match the Batfish photos.



I’m not sure when I will get to it, or the torpedo doors, but I will post it when I do.

CHEERS!!!

[scott t]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Glad to see you back!
Acurate Model Parts Instruction sheet for torpedo doors on model has some very good photos for modeling,

http://amp.rokket.biz/docs/in_usn-torshbal-b-072_gato_web.pdf

Acurate Model Parts Instruction sheet for tubes with good photos.

http://amp.rokket.biz/docs/in_usn-tortube-072_gato.pdf

Acurate Model Parts instruction sheets show rear torpedo door if you are interested.

http://amp.rokket.biz/docs/in_usn-torshval-s-072_gato_web.pdf

http://amp.rokket.biz/instructions.shtml

Scott T

[rdutnell]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

UPDATE 123

Thanks Scott! These will come in handy at some point.

As I suspected it was another busy week with little time for modeling. I did however find the time to redo the top part of the TDC. I started by slicing the existing top off.



I extruded a polyline to make the binocular body…



…And extruded ellipses to make the supports.



I then extended the binoculars forward with extruded circles…



…And extended the handles with extruded circles.



To make the top support/handle, I used spheres on the ends, lofts between circles and ellipses for the handle tops and a loft between two ellipses for the top support bar. The ellipses and circles used were the same as those shown in the image above, rotated into the proper positions. The spheres had the same radius as the circles.



I then added lens extensions to the front side…



…And to the back side. I also sliced off a section of the base to better match Tom D’s pictures.







Next, I will add the Pitometer gauge at the bottom of the bridge. Hopefully I can get to it this weekend.

CHEERS!!!

[salmon]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Russ,
It is so good to see you back!

[rdutnell]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Thanks Tom! It's good to be back, even if it is going to be mostly on weekends for a while.

[tom dougherty]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Small correction in terminology:
This is the Torpedo Bearing Transmitter TBT)(][/url]

In a surface attack, the crosshairs in the binoculars are aimed at a target and a button pushed to transmit the relative bearing of the target. This data is, in turn, fed into the Torpedo Data Computer (TDC) which was an electromechanical analog computer, located inside the conning tower attach center. This used camshafts and synchro motors to simulate the attack solution. It took in data from the submarine's own pitometer and steering, along with estimates (by periscope or TBT) of the enemy speed and course. If the solution was correct, it could predict where the target would be on the next observation. In addition, the TDC Angle Setter drove (through synchro motors) the torpedo tube gyro spindles to set the angle that the torpedo would turn after it left the tube.

[rdutnell]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

UPDATE 124

I LOVE IT TOM!!!

That was a very concise and complete description of the torpedo targeting process. On my recent trip to San Diego I read “USS Pampanito: Killer-Angel” by Gregory Michno and “Wolf Pack” by Steven Trent Smith that I checked out from the OU library prior to leaving. Although both of these books mention the targeting system, neither of them provided such a vivid and descriptive explanation as to how it worked... in just four sentences, no less. AWESOME! And the pictures are an added bonus. Thanks again for the continuing education course! )

It really is amazing what was accomplished with those old analog computers. My dad was career AF and spent much of that time in R&D working on and with analog computers. I never used one, but when I was in 4th or 5th grade he had one of the early calculators. It would add, subtract, multiply, and divide, and it was almost the size of a brick. OK, perhaps not that big, but it was large, even compared to the numerous calculators that would be widely available over the next couple of decades. My dad wouldn’t let me use the calculator, though; he made me use a slide rule. I am eternally grateful to him for that. The big story in the news while this part of my life was playing out was Apollo and the successful moon landing. Analog computers and slide rules (and many brilliant, dedicated people) put man on the moon, which was truly remarkable at the time, and seems even more so as time goes by. Who would have guessed at the time that computers would be where they are today, with everyone’s phone having more computing capability than any of the Apollo flights?

But I digress… Last weekend I had a go at the Pitometer gauge. The image below shows the circles and polylines I used to make the main body. Note the location of the origin in the center of the large circles.



The next image shows the main body after I extruded the various circles and polylines.



I then added features on the side and bottom in an attempt to match the pix Tom D has provided.



The image below shows the gauge with the Bridge layer turned on. Note the coordinate system.



I then rotated and moved the gauge in the horizontal plane to align with the fairwater base outline.



The image below shows it with the Fairwater layer turned on.



Next, I moved the gauge up out of the deck.





I wasn’t sure that I liked it so I didn’t attach it to the fairwater. I may redo it this weekend because I think it is a bit too big and not quite the right shape.
In the meantime…

You perhaps remember from back at the end of August when I mentioned that I had been asked to make some 1/700 scale 1950’s era Naval aircraft for a 1957-8 USS Midway model and posted some images of the Douglas AD-5 (A-1E) Skyraider that I had made in AutoCad. I know that it is still way off topic and doesn’t have anything to do with submarines, but as I said before, it is naval, and the means by which I am going to pay to get my Batfish model printed so I thought I would show you the results of that endeavor.

After completing the AD-5 Skyraider, I made six more aircraft including an AD-5W Skyraider, an F3C Demon, an F3H-2N Demon, an FJ4 Fury, an H-25 Army Mule and an AJ-2P Savage. The images below show the 1/700 scale models. A dime scaled to size is included on the first image for scale.





After what seemed like an interminable wait, that was really only a couple of weeks, my print order arrived yesterday. The pictures below show the “printed” aircraft.
A few comments about them][/url]























I had a lot of fun making these aircraft partially because the “Instant Gratification Factor” was high on these babies compared to a submarine or ship which obviously takes MUCH more time. Overall, I am very happy with the way they came out, and once again the detailing that 3Detail can print at is really encouraging for the future printing of both the detailed Greenling model and Batfish, some of which I hope to get printed soon. It’s just too bad it is still so expensive.

Now I am going to start reading "Blind Man's Bluff" that a friend gave me today.

CHEERS!!!

[tom dougherty]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Here’s an excellent diagram on the torpedo problem and some terminology from William McCant’s book on the USS Flasher. It shows the observed “Angle on the Bow” observation made by periscope or TBT (if on the surface). That, along with estimated target speed, was fed into the analog TDC. In turn, the TDC would calculate the gyro angle that the torpedo had to turn after it left the torpedo tube, and constantly updated the angle by driving s servo motor in the torpedo tube which was engaged in a spindle on the torpedo that set the angle. Once the TDC calculated that the target was “in range” (runtime) and the solution was good, it showed a “Solution light”, basically a “Okay to shoot” signal.

It really is amazing what was accomplished with those old analog computers

Analog computers employed resistors and capacitors to model such parameters as mechanical stress, deformation, etc. Varying the current enabled on to continuously model the system, albeit without precise numerical solutions. Early digital computers and higher level programming languages such as Fortran spelled the end of analog computers, and rapidly replaced analog models with discontinuous but precise digital calculations at closely spaced intervals. Analog computers from the 1950’s were dusted off (literally) in the 1980’s and used for some early Chaos modeling in mathematics, and provided visual (with an oscilloscope) displays of strange attractors and other new phenomena. The imprecision (inherent in resistors and capacitors networks) and dependence on initial conditions made the analog computer perfect for these new math explorations.

The big story in the news while this part of my life was playing out was Apollo and the successful moon landing. Analog computers and slide rules (and many brilliant, dedicated people) put man on the moon, which was truly remarkable at the time, and seems even more so as time goes by.

Actually, NASA had a number of IBM 709 (vacuum tubes) and 7090 (transistor) “big iron” scientific computation machines for calculations for the Apollo program. These were optimized to handle the types of problems needed for engineering, as opposed to big data batch processing for businesses. Contractors such as North American Rockwell and Grumman likewise had these computers. Design work still used slide rules, but precise calculations were done on these mainframe computers, and they also tracked the numerous items needing integration for Apollo. Even later mainframes were used during the flights themselves, to confirm trajectory calculations, etc.

I would agree with you that the dedication and intellectual effort to get Apollo accomplished was a high water mark. The number of engineering issues and challenges that had to be solved between the first sub-orbital Mercury flight in May of 1961 and July of 1969 (a little more than 8 years) was staggering. The tragedy is that the program was terminated prematurely, even though the hardware for two more Apollo moon flights had already been built (the leftover Saturn V’s are on display in Florida and Texas). I have hopes that some of the commercial companies such as SpaceX may be able to build rocket systems (such as the Falcon Heavy) that could enable a return to the moon in a more economical way. There is a lot more exploration work to do there; six flights hardly covered the moon.

Who would have guessed at the time that computers would be where they are today, with everyone’s phone having more computing capability than any of the Apollo flights?

One often sees this statement, but it is really not a fair comparison. The Apollo digital guidance computer was designed at MIT and built in Waltham, Mass. by Raytheon. The 43 pound computer had to integrate data from the Inertial Platform, the optical navigation system, and in lunar landing, the landing radar. It also had a human interface for real time interaction (flight stick controller, throttle, and DSKEY interface) and also gave an estimated lunar landing point by providing data for the Landing Point Designator scribed on the LM window. When it had problems (as on Apollo 11 landing) it would reboot in a second or two (if you had been using Windows, by the time of a reboot you would be a new lunar crater). The computer had early integrated circuits, and at one point consumed 60% of the IC output in the US. MIT historian David Mindell wrote a book “Digital Apollo” which I recommend for aficionados, that gives a very good history of the computers. He states in his book, “…does not repeat the numerous clichés that, ‘We went to the moon with a computer that was less capable than a pocket calculator’. That may be true if you measure a computer’s capability in memory capacity or machine cycles alone. But if you consider interconnections, reliability, ruggedness, and documentation, the Apollo guidance computer is at least as impressive as the PC on your desktop.”



His point was that in an era when the chief interface was still punch cards run in batches, the Apollo Guidance computer worked directly with inputs from other key systems as well as the pilot inputs in real time. Yeah, your cellphone has more memory and computer cycles, but it certainly would be given a run for its money in trying to handle all of the incoming data to land on the moon.

Now I am going to start reading "Blind Man's Bluff" that a friend gave me today.

A very good book, but now somewhat dated with additional information emerging on some of the material published in it. In some cases, they got things not quite right, but Sontag and Drew definitely did a lot of pioneering reporting work on the submarine Cold War.

[rdutnell]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Amazing Tom! You are so knowledgeable and educated on such a wide variety of topics, and I love it that you share it with us.
I'm almost finished with Blind Man's Bluff. What submarine book would you recommend that I read next?

[tom dougherty]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Sorry for the slow response; I've been really busy. If you are looking for a very good technical book on Cold War submarines (US and Soviet) there is probably no better book than this:
[b]Cold War Submarines]by Norman Polmar and K.J. Moore.

Another good book is:
[b]Stalking the Red Bear] by Peter Sasgen.

Unfortunately, one of the best books is now out of print, but it has recently become available on Kindle: Rig Ship for Ultra Quiet by Andrew Karam
The author was onboard a Permit class sub during the waning years of the Cold War. The sub is getting old & cranky, and the crew deals with this as they carry out Cold War operations near Soviet waters. Karam blends the personal observations of living on the USS Plunger with the excitement of Soviet sub trailings and other submarine operations. Karam ends the book as he and a small crew take Plunger to be decommissioned and scrapped.

[rdutnell]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

UPDATE 125

I know the feeling Tom! I’ve been really busy myself. I wouldn’t have had the time to read any of these books had you told me about them earlier. I’m trying to get my prospectus re-written and approved before December 15th, so I can defend in the Spring.
The only thing I have been able to do on Batfish in the last month has been to scale down the pitometer gauge.



The only thing I have left to do (I think) is the torpedo tube doors, but it may be a while before I get to it. Besides being busy, I have a more pressing modeling project that I have been working on in what little free time I have had. As I may have said before, my dad was career Air Force, and flew several different planes over the years. Because I enjoyed making the small scale aircraft so much (and because they are affordable to print) I decided to make all of the planes that he flew during his career, and give them to him for Christmas.

On a recent visit with him, I discreetly asked him what types of planes he had flown. The ones that he could remember include][/url]





I will return to and finish Batfish after I complete this display for my dad and of course will post it when I do.

CHEERS!!!

[rdutnell]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

UPDATE 126

Good Morning Guys!

I finally got to the torpedo doors and shutters today. Using the information Scott sent, I learned that Batfish had “Balao” type doors on the bow and “Valley” type on the stern. The AMP site includes a picture of a Gato bow from “Warship Pictorial 28 – Gato Type Flee Submarines” by Steve Wiper, which I have included below.



I started by drawing a polyline on the lower surface of the number 4 tube…



…Followed by another polyline on the upper surface.



I then lofted between the two polylines to create a solid.



It occurred to me at this point that if I did it this way there would be holes left in the middle from the existing limber holes, so I undid everything and mirrored the polylines to the other side.



I then diced and sliced the polylines and joined the 4 polylines to make 2, which I then lofted.







I did the numbers 5 and 6 tubes in the same manner.



I decided to make the numbers 1 and 2 shuttersand doors in the open position, so they were done differently. The design was based on another picture I found in the links Scott posted.



I started by extruding a circle 0.01” from the aft face (on the outside) of the tube.



I then copied the disk just created adjacent to it…



…And rotated the new disk 90 degrees to make the open door.



Next I put a hinge on the door by extruding a circle vertically where the two circles meet.



I then extruded a smaller circle through the first circle, to create an opening for a torpedo. (Note, this circle will be used again later to cut through the hull itself.)



After that I added a face on the inside of the open door by first extruding a circle…



…Then cutting notches in it. It’s not exactly like the picture but it gives the surface some texture.



At this point, I had to add the torpedoes, and rather than wing it, I decided to make a complete torpedo to scale, so I downloaded some plans of an Mark 14 torpedo, copied it into AutoCad and scaled it. I then used the plans to make a 1/144 scale torpedo, starting with the body. In the image below you can see the circles I drew to make the body…



…Which was made by lofting between the circles.



Next I added the fins (and control surfaces) by tracing the outline on one side with a polyline, extruding it 0.02”, and centering it on the body. A pivot for the control surface was created using an extruded circle. The whole thing was then mirrored to the other side…



…And rotate/copied 90 degrees. Note I also rounded the edges.



To do the propellers properly would take considerable time, so, at least for the time being, I decided to do a crude approximation. I modified a circle and an ellipse to create a polyline that I extruded 0.01” and centered on the hub.



Since there are two props, I copied the shape over for the second prop.



After a series of rotates and rotate/copies I had what is a decent propeller. Remember they are only 0.12” diameter. If I decide later to display a torpedo or two on my model, I can always change it, and perhaps even make them out of PE.





For the current purpose, I copied the torpedo to my Part 01 drawing. I then extruded the circle that I mentioned earlier, through the hull leaving the nose of the torpedo clearly visible through the door opening.



Of course, I copied it to the other side too.



Last, I sliced off the aft ends of the torpedoes and joined everything together.





The stern is next, but it will be more difficult because of the nature of the “Valley” design.

CHEERS!!!

[rdutnell]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

UPDATE 127

Good Evening Everybody!

I had a go at the stern torpedo shutters, once again using an image clipped from the AMP site that Scott posted the link to as reference.



I started by drawing polylines on the horizontal surfaces of torpedo tube number 8, then drawing guidelines between them using arcs at the surface and a line on the interior. Note that the arcs were drawn on different planes.



The images below shows the result of lofting between the polylines using the arcs and line as guides, with the Part10 layer turned off…



…And with the Part10 layer turned on.



So far, so good, but I had to make the “Valley”. To do that I created a polyline from lines and an ellipse approximating the outline of the valley at the hull, the ridge line if you will.



I then used the PROJECTGEOM command to project the polyline onto the existing Part10 (blue) and the new torpedo shutter (green).



Next I turned off the shutter layer and using the projected polyline I drew a 3-point circle intersecting the ridgeline and a center depth that I winged.



I then made multiple copies of the circles along the polyline. The image below, though somewhat busy shows the entire process, the model Part10 (gray) and shutter (red) are clearly seen with the projected (magenta) polylines on blue and green respectively. Note that the circles “disappear” into the shuttle at the projected polylines. At the forward end, where the outline rounds off, I copied more circles and then had to move them up until the point of disappearance was along the projected polyline (blue). Think of the circle as a router blade. To cut the valley in a solid version, you would start at the forward end and lower the router gradually into the hull as you moved aft until you reached the desired depth, at which point you would follow the contour of the surface until near the end, where you would go straight so that the valley floor was even with the surface of the solid.



I then lofted between all of the circles to create my router path.



I mirrored it to the other side and because I was going to be making 2 cuts, one in Part10 and one in the shutter, I copied the two objects up for future use.



I turned the router on and ran it through the model, i.e., I subtracted the extruded circle objects from the model, then I moved the two objects I copied up back into position and turned the router on again subtracting the objects from the shutters.



The results are pretty good, except that for some reason the edges appear jagged. I’m not sure why but I think it has to do with the way I lofted the hull surface way back when. Knowing what I have learned since, thanks primarily to making the small scale aircraft, I would have added guidelines on some of the sections, especially the ones where the isolines AutoCad creates aren’t straight. I think it will print OK though, even if I do have to hit it with some sandpaper.
 
Happy with it, I UNIONed the two shuttles with the model.





This leaves torpedo tube numbers 9 and 10. I’m thinking that I may make them in the open position. Who knows, maybe I will even make the model with a torpedo having just left one of the tubes?



Maybe not?

CHEERS!!!

[scott t]

Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Looks great Russ. How about making the torpedo seperate with a pin you could plug into the ship model at the
fore or aft torpedo tubes that are open. Good work man!

Scott T