TOP SECRET ... Revell Gato pics.

[desert boat]

I hate rivets ... do

I hate rivets ... do any of you remember Dwight Brook's 32d P Gato? The rivets were so big and numerous that it reminded you of the early plastc airplane kits that you had to sand down to look real. At that scale, you really can't see them all plus all the finished boats weren't identical. Stop condeming this kit until you can caress it with your own hands (don't get aroused guys).

[mkeatingss]

Looks good to me. Of

Looks good to me. Of course, I'm a slob, who would have been grateful for an enlarged "Lionfish".
But this one will only need a few small changes. A) Move anchor to port side, B) Cut down bridge to "late war" version, C) Find a pair of 5"/ 25s to replace 4"/50 and D) Get a second 40 mm for forward end of bridge.
Of course, Guppy-izing the second one, may be a bit more challenging.
D***!! It's still 3 months till November.
Mike K.

[rustysub]

Well they say a photo

Well they say a photo is worth a 1000 words so here is the skin on the ling , a late war Balao built circa 1945. Mind you this image was taken by a not so good camera on a very sunny day at high noon, yet the rivets can be clearly seen. The tower plates are riveted to a frame, Corners/edges are riveted , single row on the vertical, double row on the mid horizontals , grid format in the rear induction structure and the below the forward gun platform, all wet browning m2 chambers riveted and orbit at the base including all dry ammo chutes. Shielding are welded, on Gatos since the shield structure is larger then more welds and less rivets on the mid lines. Larger rivets on the base line, Some boats will not show this since they may be imbedded lower into the subs decking. Now you can say , these boats have a different fingerprint in details, but one thing they all have in common with exception of guppies, is that all had very heavily riveted superstructures.

I hate rivets ... do any of you remember Dwight Brook's 32d P Gato? The rivets were so big and numerous that it reminded you of the early plastic airplane kits that you had to sand down to look real. At that scale, you really can't see them all plus

I never saw this model you are referring to, but stereotyping all models from one is not the way to go. In that case I recommend you refer to the excellent build of the U505 by Bill Nagele & Greg Bergman in Issue 17 of the Sub Com report. Excellent Job on the riveting.

Don't get me wrong , I am not knocking this kit since its not out yet, Reason I am writing is that Geroge (with full honorable credit to him for coming forward on Revell and our behalf), asked for input on this Forum on what we would like to see in the kit.

Imagine a model company releasing an aircraft kit without panel lines, or a tank without cast marks or weld lines. In todays standard the model would fail. Whether you like it or not, these WWII boat were riveted, for this model to be prototypical it has to have the rivet & weld lines, If it does not then it is an inaccurate representation and not in par with the ROG U-boats, and becomes glorified toy.
Mario

[JWLaRue]

In my opinion, the ROG

In my opinion, the ROG Type VII has rivets that are grossly out of scale. At the scale we are talking about the rivets should be just barely detectable by touch.

When I built my 1/48th scale Type VIIC, I did some research on rivet technology from the 1930s and used this information to have a set of dry transfer rivets made. To make them prototypically accurate the dry transfers were around 0.005" thick.

For 1/72nd scale it would actually be more true to scale to apply them with paint!

-Jeff

[desert boat]

You said it Jeff! I

You said it Jeff! I agree 100% about the rivits, etc., if a modeler wants all the darn things at that scale, he'll get rivits.

[rustysub]

With all due respect ,

With all due respect , I don't agree with both of you. The idea of putting on rivets with paint is ridiculous! If they use the rivets that they used on the 1/144 Uboat it would work very well for 1/72. Rivets have been made in smaller scales in planes and armor. Example the German Dot diamond plate pattern seen on 1/35th &1/48th scale Panzer III and IV fenders are much smaller than the rivets on the ROG 1/72 Uboat. So the machining technology is available. If you would like to remove all of the rivets on the ROG Uboat and to make it smooth that is your personnel taste. But it is easier to remove rivets than it is to add them on. Mario



Edited By rustysub on 1154813765

[JWLaRue]

Gotta love the phrase "with

Gotta love the phrase "with all due respect"....

I did not say that the Revell model should not come with rivets on it. I did say that given the scale of the model that is being talked about, the size (thickness) of the rivet would be barely discernable and would need to be about the thickness of paint in order for it to have an accurate, scale thickness.

Can that be done in a plastic injection molded kit? Of course it can be.

If you happen to like the (grossly) oversized look of the rivets on the ROG Type VII, that's your choice. But I don't think you should tell someone that putting rivets on with paint is "ridiculous".

Want to see rivets done with the correct scale? Come take a look at my Type VIIC.

-Jeff

[rustysub]

Jeff , From reading your

Jeff , From reading your post your sounding like you think I am attacking your modeling skills, No I'm not, I say that painting rivets is ridicules because it did not work for me. I've been doing this for many years and one time even played around using glues, pins, paint etc. I also have many fully riveted submarines under my belt too, and some of you know who I am. But I am not hear to make this a personal fight you or anyone on this forum. To often, when you bring bad news everyone turns on the messenger.
All I am doing is stating is the facts, First these submarines are riveted in real life and are clearly visible, second I feel that Revell is rushing or taking a short cut in bringing a kit prematurely. Thirdly the scale rivet technology does exist. I also have a gut feeling because of the close release dates that the kit is already made out regardless on any input that is posted in other words too late.
As far as the ROG Uboats are concerned, every nicely done ROG uboat I have seen on the net retains its "Grossly" out of scale rivets.
Mario



Edited By rustysub on 1154819603

[JWLaRue]

Mario,

In your original post, you

Mario,

In your original post, you stated "painting rivets is ridiculous"....which is really a blanket statement and not the same as what you have now posted "painting rivets is ridicules because it did not work for me".

So yes, I did take what you said as an attack on my modeling skills.

-Jeff

p.s. I would argue that rivets of the type used on subs during WW2 are not necessarily as clearly visible as some assume when the model is as small as what we're talking about.

[rustysub]

Jeff, I will say this

Jeff, I will say this again, no offence meant towards your skills, Now for this Revell thing , This will also be the last time I write about this matter on this furom. What ever comes out you will all know in a few months anyway, good or bad. So Long, Mario

[anonymous]

All right I just have

All right I just have to jump in here. You guys know me. The bad man who started Subpirates.

Now first. This is a Revell staic model kit. Suitable for RC but it really wasn't made for that purpose. Second. For this kind of quality and some what decent size the price of the kit under 100 bucks is an absolute steal!

If I were making a boat this detailed and scale for RC it would be 300 plus dollars easy for a kit. So if it doesn't have rivets it wouldn't bother me. I'd use my modeling skills to create the rivets myself. As it is at this little scale they wouldn't show much. Yes little. Worry about that stuff for the 6-7 footers. And yes I know people myself included that can paint so well the only way you'll know they are painted on is if you touch it.

I'll buy one despite the fact that I am a scratch builder. Who wouldn't at that price and it will make a great pool toy.

Now if your a static builder. I still wouldn't complain. Do you want everything done for you? What would be the point and how much credit could you really take about the build if you didn't use your skills to make it better.

Stop complaining and just build the darn boat. Heck at that price I might by two.

Steve AKA U812 subpirates.com site owner

P.S. I'm with you Jeff. Well put!



Edited By U812 on 1154833998

[JWLaRue]

Steve,

Well put! (and thanks!)

-Jeff

Steve,

Well put! (and thanks!)

-Jeff

[stark]

Jeff is right about the

Jeff is right about the rivets guys , I was able to see his work up close, and a fine job he did . Now if you will , lets look at the rivets in a scale perspective , the sise of the rivet in your hand , may measure about 3/4 ot a 1/2 inch right ? Now knowing how that looks in your hand and compare it to your finger nail , ever see a 1/72nd scale crewman , at that scale his finger nails are almost not noticable , so a rivet at that scale would be well represented as a dab of small paint , and painted over ! Now to represent this efect on my boats I use a tiny prick of white glue , cured and painted over , most of the aircraft models today rivets are resesed , and this give a very good visual look of a rivet ! My first impresion of Revells U BOOT was to blow me away , but then I took note that the rivets were over done , no big deal , you guys scratch building boats must appreciate the work of the model they did , I do ! And I found that a peice of 1500th sand paper will take down the rivets to a more scale like look without to much efort , and if you really wish to replace all the rivets on the model , sand them off and go fore it, see ya at the funny farm . Good enougth for me they are and , like Steve said the money we pay for the kits , well do we really need to be so critical ? Mayby a SSY boat and start from scratch would be the ansewer for some of us , and I would really like to do a comparison of your efforts , up against Revells when you are done ! And like a post before mentioned we will all see soon !BS

[rustysub]

As the God Father Movie

As the God Father Movie once said "I keep trying to get out! and they keep pulling me back in!"
Ok guys you are all missing the point and here it is- Why would I want to go and rivit a new 2006 submarine kit with glue, crayons, paint,etc. etc. If a company can make scale riveting with all their fancy cnc machines perfectly and uniformed as they should be.
You say the price is low so we should all keep quite, in that case get a dumas at least you get the rc stuff to. Riveting is no big deal for a company to do.
Come on guys! What has happened to you? Is this not the Sub Committee?? The Meat Grinder of excellence in a submarine kit! have you all become sheep, desperate to accept an out dated kit. Don't be the person to walk into a new car show room and be saled, only to walk out with a car with no wheels saying ,Oh I can melt rubber and make them myself. Am I the only one here with grapefruit to say to revell do a better job! I know you can. Come on Subcommittee Wake Up! Mario



Edited By rustysub on 1154870120

[stark]

Mario, we & I get

Mario, we & I get your point ! The Off The Shelf Kits by this manufacture are super , when compared to other model subs available in this scale . Now ever sence the merger of Monogram, Revell, and Revell of Germany , their Pro Series , have been a super Jump in the right direction , Yes ? I have builted so many of their kits , and wanted so much more out of them, I either took it opon my self to rescribe and enhance , or buy a better made brand of model , from another kit producer . All my life expecially as a boy , dreamed of having a model of a sub , like I saw in the films ,You know the ones that would be in the seen, on a shelf, behind the guys desk in the movies . Now I have them , for me I am overjoyed to buy a kit for just a few dollars , and do a little enhanceing to her shoot, better than starting from scratch , maybe , we could wright to Revell and get them to change this ,I dont know. But the "trend of subs that will follow by other model makers as they see the money to be made" , in time will give us all what we want in a kit . So my friend till then and as MA & PA used to tell me " make the best out of what you are Given" BS