RC Sub Electronics - Advice Tips

[nexus6]

[color=#000000]Hi further to another post on a seperate thread I started. Can anyone provide me with a guide, link or manual on setting up the electronis in a sub. Generic, I am confused with Battery terminology such as in Parallel and in Series. How to wire up the motors to the speed controller and how to wire up the ballast pump. If this is different for each sub setup or may there be a general way of doing it.

I have a number of subs I have purchased and need to finish them off, one has a ballast pump that inflates an airbag(armband) in this case UBOAT IIc Type c (Darnell) 1/40th Scale, one is a push rod ballast tank USS George Washington 1/35th Scale and another floods a ballast tank ALPHA 1/96th Scale.


All help as ever very, very much appreciated.


Nick Thomas

Wales
UK

PS]

[ramius-ii]

Hi Nick]http://www.subcommittee.com/forum/icon_smile.gif
You may

Hi Nick]http://www.subcommittee.com/forum/icon_smile.gif[/img]
You may wish to consider taking a "basic" electricity / electronics class at a local school. Many public schools offer such classes at very little cost if not for free. There are also teaching kits at Radio Shack and other electronic stores. The understanding you would like would best be provided on a one on one basis. As you progress, there will be more and more information that will be useful such as ohm's law and an understanding of AC, DC and RF energies. If you were here, I'd invite you over to the house and work with you. If you can read a schematic or wiring drawings, I'll be glad to support your interests by e-mail.

Best, Ed

[ramius-ii]

Hi Nick]http://www.subcommittee.com/forum/icon_smile.gif
Here is

Hi Nick]http://www.subcommittee.com/forum/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Here is some additional information that may be useful. If you want to learn about electricity then]www.veetail.com/HowRCworks.shtml[/url].

Best, Ed

[chuck chesney]

I fully agree with Ramius

I fully agree with Ramius II regarding taking a basic class in electricity, which you will need before going on to electronics. The reality is that electricity is not too intuitive. If you just kind of try to figure it out on your own, you will be very frustrated and will end up burning up a lot of equipment. The good news is that the very basic stuff that you will need for a model boat is'nt too difficult.
The "learn by doing" approach is very expensive, time consuming and potentially dangerous. You will learn more in a couple of months in a classroom than you will be able to figure out on your own in years.

[boss subfixer]

Ed,
I just went to both

Ed,
I just went to both of those sites you mentioned and WOW!
This is exactly the kind of thing that needs to go on the links page. I saved copies from the electric circuits site and I'm going after the information from Veetail.
Thanks for the info.
BSF

[nexus6]

Thanks to all for the

Thanks to all for the great advice, and links Ramius. Just took delivery of the George Washington and its a beast. Very heavy, scratch built, to a high standard.

Only problem, in transit it has been damaged. The Hull on the front has a crack in the fibre glass. Is there any easy way to repair FG. I am thinking push in the cracked fibre glass and use car body filler to seal the crack. Sand and paint.

Would I have to re-glass the inside of the crack on the hull. It just seems there is no easy way to get to it from the inside.

Again, thanks for taking time to help a beginner.

Nick
Wales

[chuck chesney]

Hi Nexus6,
Regarding your question about

Hi Nexus6,
Regarding your question about repairing your George Washington hull that was damaged in transit...
Is it a free flooding wet hull boat with a seperate Water Tight Compartment (WTC), or a dry hull boat? If its wet hull, you may be able to get away with body putty, since the hull is'nt holding any pressurized air.
It sounds from your post like it may be a dry hull (like the Engels boats). They tend to be very heavy from the ballast they have to carry, and the hull itself is a sealed pressure hull. If you are'nt sure, tell us what kind of ballast system it has. That will answer the question. If the boat is a dry hull, you will have to be very sure that the hulls pressure holding ability has not been compromised. Could be that major repair work is in order.
There are lots of guys out here who will help.

[bradv]

For a pretty good introduction

For a pretty good introduction to electronics IMHO (as an electrical engineer) have a look at Electronics for Beginners & Intermediate Electronics

I still refer to parts of this for my sub work semi-regularly

[nexus6]

Again Thanks for the replys

Again Thanks for the replys guys. Ok here goes.

It is very heavy, has a steel plate in the base of the wtc, which ways a #### of a lot plus it was loaded with alot of lead ballast in the aft motor area.

It came with two boards containing motors and what looks similar to the engel ballast pumps. There is no tubing, to connect any of this but it seems fairly easy to get hold of. The hull has two small holes near the bow which I assume are for the pumps and another small hole towards the back. All holes are around 15mm dia. I am not sure why it has two pump trays and pumps I am not sure they will fit in the hull.

Why would I need two?? Water in water out??

I have been told it is better to drill small holes around the damaged area and cut it out with a small saw or dremel. Rather than try and push in the damage and fill as this will leave a raised area.

Views??
Thanks again for the Electrics info, very helpful.

Nexus6

[don prince]

I posted this link once

I posted this link once before...

http://www.veetail.com/HowRCworks.shtml

I found this to be an excellent training document for understanding the basic RC transmitter - receiver - and servo.

Regards,
Don_

[chuck chesney]

Hi Nick,
The George Washington boat

Hi Nick,
The George Washington boat that you are describing is an Engels "Patrick Henry". You can get full details on the boat at www.engel-modellbau.de/ . I have had one for over twenty years. The holes in the bow are for the hoses that run (1)to the forward piston ballast tank and (2)to the pressure switch that blows the ballast tanks if the sealing plate under the missile deck, or anything else, leaks and allows air out or water in. The hole in the aft end is for the stern piston ballast tank. The metal slab is to check the strength of your back, and to ballast the whole thing down. You are correct when you call it "a beast".
About a year or so ago I did a major overhaul on my boat. I threw away the metal slab, the piston tanks, the pressure switch, the motor/gear train, and the sealing plate. The boat, as it comes from the factory (with all of above mentioned parts) is known as a "dry hull" boat, because the entire hull is a dry, water tight compartment inside. I converted my boat to a "wet hull" boat, with the radio, servos ,other electonics and drive chain components inside a 3" WTC. It cut the overall weight of the boat by about 60%. In a "wet hull" boat the hull simply becomes a fairing for the WTC, which is the real submarine. Water flows freely in and out of the hull, which is flooded both on the surface and submerged. The ballast tanks were replaced by a RECABS ballast system, invented by Dr.Art Broder. The RECABS ballast system is much cheaper, more reliable and easier to use than piston ballast tanks. It will increase your run times significantly, too. Oh yeah, I changed to a 12V propulsion system, while I was at it.
With the shipping damage to your boat that you described in an earlier post, the wet hull/Broder system may well be your best bet.
If I can be of help with your boat, send me an email.

[nexus6]

Big thanks for that info

Big thanks for that info Chuck. It is indeed the Engel, Patrick Henry. I was told it was scratch built but can now see from the Engel site that it is the kit pictured.

Since I got the sub second hand and for only a couple of hundred pounds, it has no manual and just the hull, ballast, two piston tanks and what looks like a large switch type device. Once I join Sub Committee I will post pictures of it.

I wonder if you know where I could get a copy of the manual, just to see how the inside should be laid out and what parts I would need to replace. The rear rudder and dive plane have been damaged, slightly, and don't know if I can buy all the spares I need from the Engel site. It does not seem so.

I wonder how much it would be to convert to the WTC you speak of, the motor is still in the rear and the two linkages are there for the rudder etc.

Again a big thanks on identifying the boat in question and all the great info. Ther are very little if any RC Submariners in Cardiff, Wales where I live. All surface ships.

Nick

[chuck chesney]

Hi Nick,
Glad that I could

Hi Nick,
Glad that I could help out. I suspect that if you contact Engels by phone or email that they could supply the manuals and layouts that you need. I would gladly give you mine, but they have been lost decades ago.
If you go to the top of the Subcommittee home page you will see a "members" list button. Find my name on it, and you can send me an email. Give me your direct email address, and we can discuss your boat at length.
Converting your boat to modern technology is not too expensive...probably no more than what you spent on the boat in the first place, and maybe lots less. It sounds like you may have a RECABS system (or something very similar) already. In your first post you mentioned a boat that blew up a bladder (cuff). Thats exactly what a RECABS does. RECABS stands for RECirculatingAirBallastSystem.
Also, in the UK there are two very good sub kit builders, OTW and Shearline. I think that you may be able to find links to them in the vendors section of the Subcommitte web site. The equipment and systems they sell could most assuredly be used in boats that you already own.
Remember that the Engels technology is at least thirty years old, and while it was the very best available in it's time, there are newer, cheaper (MUCH cheaper), lighter and more reliable ways to get that #### boat to go down and come up at your command.
By the way, in this last post of your you mentioned a "switch " like device. If its about two inches in diameter and made out of plastic with a place for a hose fitting on the front, it's the pressure saftey switch.

Cheers, hope to hear from you soon.

[Guest]

Hi,

I can't agree that fitting

Hi,

I can't agree that fitting a compressed air ballast system is a step forward.

There is nothing 'modern' in concept with the RCABS system. John Darnell had a similar set-up working in the 1960's.

The air system has the advantage that it can be put together cheaply, and without the need of workshop tools like a lathe.
However, in this case the fellow in question already has the piston tanks in his possesion, so he may as well use them.

Piston tanks do need a reasonable amount of maintenance- seals need checking and threads lubricating, but that is all.

A system with an air bag can be punctured, hoses can go, pumps can seize. Also it's more difficult to trim a boat with a compressed air ballast system, as you cannot apply means of proportional control.

Regarding the efficiency of ballast sytems. The main reason the Engel tanks use a lot of current, is that their drive motors are a tad over specified. A conversion kit is available to convert the 540 type motors to 400 style. This will reduce current draw substantially.

Also, if you reduce the displacement of the hull by conversion to a wet hull system, then you reduce the size of the ballast tank, so naturally you will improve running times, as you have reduced the size of ballast required to submerge.

If a lighter boat is the goal, a wtc could be constructed using just one of the piston tanks. This would immediately half the current draw. Add the 400 motor conversion kit and I reckon you will have a fairly efficient ballast sytem which is easy to trim.

Andy

[nexus6]

Again thanks to all for

Again thanks to all for the detailed reply on the Sub in question. The U-boat I have is a Darnell, so it has the Recabs system already in place.

The Engel, has the two piston tanks but no electronics. It has the pressure switch as mentioned by Chuck. I assume I will need to buy two TA control boards from Engel and the depth control switch, also I notice the need for tubing, I am also assuming that this is specialist and cannot be purchased from a plumber supply store or DIY centre.

I have dropped Engel an e-mail to see if they can supply spares not listed on thier site for that boat and asked for a copy of the manual for the Patrick Henry. As someone who has been only ever use to almost ready to run, it has been a little daunting at first, but since in modelling terms it is nearly complete I still appreciate the help gentlemen.

Since I went a bit mad on e-bay and bought 5 almost complete subs within a month, I should have bought just one and got that going first. Since all of them have diffrent diving systems, except the Krick u25 and the Deep Dive V Sub, which are dynamic divers.

Again, thanks to all.

Nick