To all the members that left the SubCommittee

[myles yancey]

I would like to know why you left the Subcommittee, so my questions to you are.

1) Why did you leave the SubCommittee?

2) What Would help you to decide to rejoin the subcommittee?

[slats]

Re: To all the memebers that left the SubCommittee

I would like to know why you left the Subcommittee, so my questions to you are.

1) Why did you leave the SubCommittee?

2) What Would help you to decide to rejoin the subcommittee?

I am going to preface my answer by saying these are my opinions which I guarantee others WILL disagree with. I WILL NOT be engaging in a debate over what was MY reasons for leaving after some 10 years of membership. Myles has asked the question of those who left and these are MY REASONS.

A1) - Cost to overseas members / Value for money / Content of the magazine / lack of local relevance outside North America / lack of member benefits online cf with registered users (which I am now one of) / failure by SC staff to respect differing opinions affecting those outside the US / individual clicks and petty ego stroking

A2) - Addressing all of the above.


If you want this to be a truely internation organisation IMO you have to do far more than just have international members.

Have you thought for example about assisting with Sub Regattas outside the states, or perhaps promoting them in the mag and on-line with the gusto you do for the US one in Carmel?

I have been a member spanning from 1996 to about two years ago (07).
The erosion of the magazine over that time was noticable. Others might like pages filled withsome one's screen play -but I'd rather spend money elsewhere. The tech articles of the late 90's and early 00's were simply worth the membership again and again.

Have you thought about paying (not via simple free memberships), but via contributor payments for articles from experts (you know who they are)?

I cannot help but notice, that part of the problem with the erosion of the mag over time is correlated with timeframes of pathetic infighting between egos and petty jealousy amongst some in the US. It seems that US RC sub movement is very clicky at its pointy end. Where some (not all), either dislike or like people according to which camp or following you fit into. In short there was, perhaps still is, far too much pathetic politicing that I have seen first hand and been a casulty of - for merely pointing out that fact. Its a hobby guys so for those involved get over yourselves and tell someone who cares.

[gerwalk]

Thanks for asking!

1) I joined

Thanks for asking!

1) I joined the SC back in 2004 while in the States because of the SCR (even bought several back issues). Then after returning to my country I kept my membership for a while until membership due increment, currency devaluation and the eternal waiting for the snail mail to bring me that wonderful magazine convinced me to leave.

One thing that seems that a lot of members seems to forget is that the SC is not only about RC submarines ( http://subcommittee.com/SubComm/about_us.cfm) and the long regatta articles are a big drawback from my POV. I prefer more history, kits reviews and technical articles, even a more "technical" regatta report would be nice.


2) I will considering rejoining if an electronic issue of the SCR would be available at a reasonable price and if these forums are opened to the entire world.

As I said before]http://www.subcommittee.com/forum/icon_wink.gif[/img] )

Pablo

[skip asay]

John -

I don’t want to

John -

I don’t want to debate this with you (certainly not here) but I do want to clear up a couple of points.

“Value for money / Content of the magazine / lack of local relevance outside North America”

What people don’t understand is that the SCR, like most magazines, relies on CONTRIBUTORS who write articles. There is no in house staff doing this. If people don’t write articles, there aren’t any articles to read.

“failure by SC staff to respect differing opinions affecting those outside the US”

I don’t understand this one. What am I missing?

“individual clicks and petty ego stroking”

Could you explain this a little? Perhaps in a PM?

“Have you thought for example about assisting with Sub Regattas outside the states”

I’ll take a stab at this even though I’m not a policy making officer. Any SubRegatta REQUIRES that everything be in place FIRST. That means you need the location (decent enough water, decent parking, facilities relatively close, etc.) and the WARM BODIES to do all the work. Then, and only then, approach the powers that be for a sponsorship. The SubCommittee DOES NOT run a SubRegatta, the local folks do but the SubCommittee will sponsor it. Now that I’ve said that, please bear in mind that this is how it works here in the States. I honestly don’t know if the same applies outside. To the best of my knowledge, no person/group has ever approached the SubCommittee from outside our borders. But it’s worth a try, don’t you think?

“or perhaps promoting them in the mag and on-line with the gusto you do for the US one in Carmel?”

Has anybody ever sent all the pertinent info to the powers that be requesting this?

“I cannot help but notice, that part of the problem with the erosion of the mag over time is correlated with timeframes of pathetic infighting between egos and petty jealousy amongst some in the US. It seems that US RC sub movement is very clicky at its pointy end. Where some (not all), either dislike or like people according to which camp or following you fit into.”

From what I’ve seen, this is more applicable to another web site, not the SubCommittee. I distinctly remember the owner of that other site continuously putting the SubCommittee down at every chance and taking some SC members with him. I was handled pretty roughly over there strictly because I disagreed with one of the in house “gurus”.

Again, I’m not looking to fight, just to give a little information and possibly get some, as well.

Skip Asay

[Guest]

I think a nice addition

I think a nice addition to the report, would be a section titled something like 'In the drydock'.

This could be made up of many members contributions, say each member contributing a 100-150 words with a photo or two,detailing something they've been working on.

I'm sure many members, myself included, are somewhat pushed to submit a full blown article or series of articles, but could easily submit a few words about something they've been working on.

This could be a hull, a kit, a new gadget they've developed for their dive module etc. etc.

What do others think of that idea?

[cnutting]

Andy that is a great

Andy that is a great idea. There used to be a similar feature in the SCR, not sure if it disappeared due to lack of participation. I used to enjoy that section, always nice to see how someone else skins a cat....

[PaulC]

It needs to be reaffirmed

It needs to be reaffirmed that the SubCommittee is an organization for the submarine enthusiast, not necessarily the r/c submariner. While model building is a primary focus it is not the sole purpose for the Report or the website. That's how you get a sub movie screenplay, submarine book reviews, and articles on sub movies and arcade games.

To maintain the proper balance and provide the content that modelers want is a tough act. And there was a period where some significant writers on the r/c modeling front stepped away from the magazine which affected the content mix. However, it all comes back to member submissions. Without them there is no content. I personally feel the magazine has been providing quality r/c modeling info for the last several years.

When I get an idea for an article I'd like to read in the SCR I write it according to the submission format and send it in. It runs sooner or later. If you want to see something in the magazine, write it up and send it in. Or round up some people who can. This will assist the editor and contribute positively to the magazine.

Regarding international subregatta promotion, we offer banner ads, free forums in which to coordinate and promote events, and space in the magazine for full page fliers. For seven years now I've taken advantage of it all for SubRon5. Andy does the same for his events in the UK. The only time I hear about an event in Australia is when the post-event review appears in the Fox Schedule. You guys appear to have a swinging time down there! We'd be happy to help get the word out if a request were made.

[tsenecal]

The following is 100% personal

The following is 100% personal opinion.

I understand that many if not all of my concerns may have been resolved. Things change.

having said all that:

I was a member for one year.

1) I joined because several members of the model boat club I joined that same year were members of SC as well, and praised it as the only US organization for model submarine hobbyist

2) of the four quarterly SCRs that I received that year, none of them arrived in a timely fashion. All were at least one month late, some arrived so late they could have been the following edition. this is not late due to mail. this is late due to production. I am the first to admit however, that the SCR is of a production level greater than any other similar size hobby club magazine.

3) the articles in the SCR for that year were not of interest to me. All articles were of subjects such as historical information on the US navy's nuclear submarine development. Although interesting from a historical perspective, of little use in building static or r/c submarines. I understand that the SCR articles are created by the members themselves, but I was a newbie, what could I possibly have added to any discussion at that time?

3) most of the information that i needed was found in one of two places:
previous editions of the SCR, with no index of articles from which i could find these articles, or websites. not just SC's website, but quite a few others as well. It is the same now. Now that the world has the internet, the subcommittee is a small fish in a big pond. I can find accurate, succinct info on any submarine i want to learn about.

4) although individual members who I personally met were all cordial and more than happy to answer any questions I asked, the general feeling from the SC officials was cold. as if i didn't matter to them. It felt as if the subcommittee was actually two different groups. the first group was the one I was familiar with, several hobbyist members, identical to me, who wanted to learn "at the feet of the masters/old-timers" who had done all the initial work to make model submarines a science and not a black-art. the second group was the politicos. the politicos were the ones that were very clique-ish, either you were one of them, or you were an outsider. the politicos exist in every hobby club i have belonged to, and they seem to exist simply to aggrandize their personal existence in the club. "self important snobs" is how an old friend once described them. at that time I could see the writing on the wall, and decided it was better for me to continue my friendships with the many SC members I had met, but to leave the politicos to their narrow sighted manipulations that have left Myles with the mess he has inherited from past regimes. I actually went to the 2005 regatta (i think. it was the first regatta held at carmel) I enjoyed the company of many individuals, and felt it was one of the best model regattas I had ever attended, but even there it was clique-ish, with a very small group of individuals that seemed to wield an enormous amount of self serving power (ie, most of the people there could care less about these people, as long as they didn't cause problems)

I also felt it was odd that one of the highest members of an organization wouldn't even bother to show up at that organization's premier event.

that in a nutshell is why I stopped being a member.

i feel the hobby aspect should outweigh the politics. not the other way around.

you guys are arguing about whether the SCR should be printed or PDF, when that is irrelevant.

you should be arguing about what has happened to the content of the SCR and not how it is presented.

why aren't people willing to step up and pass on this knowledge they have gained?

I have attempted to do my part. many of my posts I can no longer get to, I posted many times to the Research subs/ROV section only to have that section added to the members only segment.

later

[slats]

The following is 100% personal

[quote]The following is 100% personal opinion.

I understand that many if not all of my concerns may have been resolved. Things change.

having said all that]

Agree 100%.

[slats]

Skips made some good points

Skips made some good points that I won't debate but would like to add clarity to. I want to emphasise I am not looking to give the SC a kick, but a public question was asked of why we left and my experience is my experience

John -

I don’t want to debate this with you (certainly not here) but I do want to clear up a couple of points.

“Value for money / Content of the magazine / lack of local relevance outside North America”

What people don’t understand is that the SCR, like most magazines, relies on CONTRIBUTORS who write articles. There is no in house staff doing this. If people don’t write articles, there aren’t any articles to read.

I do understand this - I am the Editor of the Task Force 72 Magazine. The bottom line / key difference is that organisation does not exist around its Magazine's success of failure - but as an Editor I do appreciate that you need contributors - the bigger question is why you don't have people like you use to writing?
In my situation it became harder to support the SC with all the other issues I listed. Now days I write professionally for other model boating mags. Others too do this. I give my time free to the TF72 Mag -as I believe in it. Its hard to say I'd I divert time and forgo income to an organisation that I have trouble being part of.

If you want a tip re the Magazine content - instead of trying to fill 64 pages - go with quality rather than quanity. Nothing improves my supply of articles for TF72 like putting out a light Edition.


“failure by SC staff to respect differing opinions affecting those outside the US”

I don’t understand this one. What am I missing?

Again as Tenscal put it - things might have changed. But my view is that all raised problems I put forward where dealt with previously with a dismissive attitude, rather than even acknowledgement of a problem. Issues people might have in Australia, are different to that in Europe, and the US. Its a failure of previous SC staff to assume what's good for the home folks is good for everyone. Its an arrogant view.


“individual clicks and petty ego stroking”

Could you explain this a little? Perhaps in a PM?

Lets just Tenscal's view is pretty much on the mark of what I mean - it was - maybe still is very clique-ish.

“Have you thought for example about assisting with Sub Regattas outside the states”

I’ll take a stab at this even though I’m not a policy making officer. Any SubRegatta REQUIRES that everything be in place FIRST. That means you need the location (decent enough water, decent parking, facilities relatively close, etc.) and the WARM BODIES to do all the work. Then, and only then, approach the powers that be for a sponsorship. The SubCommittee DOES NOT run a SubRegatta, the local folks do but the SubCommittee will sponsor it. Now that I’ve said that, please bear in mind that this is how it works here in the States. I honestly don’t know if the same applies outside. To the best of my knowledge, no person/group has ever approached the SubCommittee from outside our borders. But it’s worth a try, don’t you think?

Not true - whilst I am not involved in the organisation of the Australian Sub Regatta - years back I did try and promote a Sub Run (that had everything organised and in place). - Got very little help when approaching the SCR editor to give me a page in the mag.
It would seem local SubRons in the US can have what they want - Paul's advice now is opposite to what I experienced.

“or perhaps promoting them in the mag and on-line with the gusto you do for the US one in Carmel?”

Has anybody ever sent all the pertinent info to the powers that be requesting this?

yes see above

“I cannot help but notice, that part of the problem with the erosion of the mag over time is correlated with timeframes of pathetic infighting between egos and petty jealousy amongst some in the US. It seems that US RC sub movement is very clicky at its pointy end. Where some (not all), either dislike or like people according to which camp or following you fit into.”

From what I’ve seen, this is more applicable to another web site, not the SubCommittee. I distinctly remember the owner of that other site continuously putting the SubCommittee down at every chance and taking some SC members with him. I was handled pretty roughly over there strictly because I disagreed with one of the in house “gurus”.

Not at all Skip - you'll notice I am talikng above about a time period pre SPs - although as you mentioned it the same problems eventuated there. I was a shot messenger and whipping boy for pointing out childish stupidity and problems cause because of silly infighting.

Again, I’m not looking to fight, just to give a little information and possibly get some, as well.

You won't get one- I am in the hobby to have fun.

Skip Asay

[Guest]

John,

You have stated what you

John,

You have stated what you don't like and what you didn't get.

What you now need to do is state clearly exactly what you are looking for in terms of support for such an event from the Sub Committee. Assuming you get it, rejoin and make it happen.

My own experience is that you don't need high finance to have a succesful sub regatta, but you do need the support of fellow modellers and a good venue to operate from.

The latter can be difficult to source- took me six years of scouring the internet, making phone calls, sending emails etc.

Most of the time I got knocked back, eventually I found two venues, one of which fell into my lap.

I'm still working on the support bit. Some guys like Ramesh, have been extremely supportive, but numbers are still low. To date I only regularly correspond with about 10% of UK Sub Committee membership. this is despite sending out emails, making personal telephone calls to memebrs etc.

Most frustrating is when folk say they will come, and then don't show on the day.

My current way to counter this is to widen my net. I've got some advertising sorted in the two big Model boat publications in UK, Marine Modelling international and Model Boats for the forthcoming pool runs at Brockwell Lido.

We will see.......

[slats]

John,

You have stated what you

John,

You have stated what you don't like and what you didn't get.

What you now need to do is state clearly exactly what you are looking for in terms of support for such an event from the Sub Committee. Assuming you get it, rejoin and make it happen.

My own experience is that you don't need high finance to have a succesful sub regatta, but you do need the support of fellow modellers and a good venue to operate from.

The latter can be difficult to source- took me six years of scouring the internet, making phone calls, sending emails etc.

Most of the time I got knocked back, eventually I found two venues, one of which fell into my lap.

I'm still working on the support bit. Some guys like Ramesh, have been extremely supportive, but numbers are still low. To date I only regularly correspond with about 10% of UK Sub Committee membership. this is despite sending out emails, making personal telephone calls to memebrs etc.

Most frustrating is when folk say they will come, and then don't show on the day.

My current way to counter this is to widen my net. I've got some advertising sorted in the two big Model boat publications in UK, Marine Modelling international and Model Boats for the forthcoming pool runs at Brockwell Lido.

We will see.......

Agree Andy-
but the really interesting part in what your saying is as to "what I'd like".
There was a time when it need not be asked as the SC was delivering what I'd like.....Not sure anymore what would bring me back.

Why, the guys down here are pretty much self sufficient so if there was a time that the SC was needed its now perhaps passed...so its not to me a question of what I'd like its a question of how relevant is the SC to my hobby activity now?

I.e.e.g- The ACT Model Boat Club hosts the Australian Sub Regatta every two years. They do a tremendous job putting on an extremely good 2 day event. The organisation is truly a massive task and a credit to them. These guys do this quite successfully without the SC.

Moreover when on the cusp of quitting a few years back the guys I regularly sail subs with were all non SC members -why? They could see zero local benefit to them.

And that's the current conundrum. Relevance! There was a time that this hobby had a greater deal of mystery behind it than now - that was the time pre the high speed internet we now take for granted. That was a time when RC sub kits were just emerging into the mainstream, and the masters were busy pioneering the modern hobby we now have. That was a time when a great deal of time was spent on explaining the engineering basics in easy to understand language (via the SC report). That time was about 10-15 or so years back. The SC's relevance back then was far greater than now. Whilst the SC might profess to be a submarine enthusiast organisation - its probably most well known for the contribution it made to demystifying the hobby of RC submarines for at least the English speaking world and at a time when instead of the internet a large portion of the hobby's information was disseminated via the SCR.

IMO The SC main membership problem stems from the issue of "Relevance". Value for money is most certainly linked to it.

For the record the early SCRs I have spanning the 90'sa and early 00's I still use today as reference - why? They are still relevant to my hobby. These are gold and worth to me the cost of membership many times over. In fact if someone were to ask me should they join the SC, I'd probably say the best money you could spend with the SC is buying every back issue of the SCR you can buy between 1996 and 2005.

I admit I started quibbling over cost to international members when the SCR signal to noise ratio dropped drastically (when the tech articles diminished and the screen plays and other fillers were added). What I was really doing was considering the relevance of what the value of the membership was. The attitudes of some I encountered and have documented herein sealed the deal to quit.

So get the relevance back to members and you can improve things. I think you will find that I am not alone in what I found was relevant via the tech side of the SCR.

[myles yancey]

Hi to all as I

Hi to all as I have always said if you give a person enough rope they will hang themselves espically when they repeat something word for word.

Anyway back to the topic at hand please feel free to give your honest opinions I have no problem with that it tells me what I need to do to improve things in the SC.

Thanks Myles

[Guest]

I think I got an

I think I got an answer to a different question, which I never asked.

I wanted to know what help you were hoping to get from the Sub Committee for organising a Sub Regatta.

A few years ago when I was looking to get an indoor pool run going. The fees for pool hire were far from cheap, but 'cheaper' than most venues I'd contacted- about £60 per hour.

I got a positive response when I enquired about funding such an event, and I'm not party to any clique I can assure you.

In the end I never went ahead with this venture, simply because I didn't consider there was sufficient backing and the event would have run at a loss.

[cnutting]

This is another reason why

This is another reason why I suggested an off-board poll. Airing of the soiled laundry does not help our reputation...