Gunter Prien

[rick]

It would seem that they

It would seem that they would have a general idea where to look....I would think.......I mean, if what is written in the book is close to being correct...the Wolverine was responsible for her demise....The Capt. of the Wolverine said that he was just about right on top of the U boat in question when he dropped the first group of Depth charges.....He thought he missed the conning tower by inches, I believe is what he was quoted as saying....and according to the book, Prien was one of three Uboats attacking that convoy...the others being Kretschmer and one who escapes me right now....But I guess with the depth of the water and not being able to pin point the exact position....it is like trying to find the proverbial needle in the haystack......and with so much time going by....I doubt much is left of it.....It would make a great documentary subject at the very least...

[dougie995]

Hi Rick,

For decades it was

Hi Rick,

For decades it was widely believed that U 47 was sunk during the early hours of the 8th March following a depth-charge attack by the British destroyer HMS Wolverine. However, recent research has indicated that this attack by Wolverine, aided by Verity, was perpetrated against Eckermann’s U A. The damage sustained by U A during the depth-charge attack compelled Eckermann to abort his patrol and return to Lorient.

The Wolverine’s evidence for having sunk a U-boat did not meet the Admiralty’s strict criteria for establishing a positive kill. But when the Admiralty learned through interrogation of the survivors of U 99 and U 100 that Prien had been in the area, and that he was missing, the British came to the conclusion that the Wolverine’s attack on the 8th March had “probably sunk” U 47. Possibly the propaganda value of announcing that a destroyer had positively destroyed the German U-boat ace influenced the decision to credit Wolverine with the destruction of U 47.

The true cause of U 47's demise may have been -
- Accident due to crew error
- Accident due to mechanical or structural failure
- Kreislaeufer (a malfunctioning torpedo fired by U 47 circled around and destroyed the boat)
- Errant torpedo from another U-boat
- Camellia/Arbutus (other sources have suggested that the sinkers of U 70 - British corvettes HMS Camellia and Arbutus – may have sunk U 47)
Drifting mine

As we don't know the cause of U 47's demise or the time (sometime on the 7th), the exact location of the sinking gets even harder to pin down.

A documentary would be great!

Cheers,

Dougie

[rick]

I have never heard of

I have never heard of this accounting of Eckermann and the UA....although I can understand the morale effect this would have by crediting a RN destroyer with the sinking...Do you happen to know what the last communication Doenitz had with the U 47? I always wondered why there were not more U boat casualties by errant torpedoes when wolf packs attacked a convoy....It makes one appreciate just how dangerous Kretschmers style really was....I do remember reading that the Arbutus was responsible for the other sinking that day Prien was lost...U 70?? I guess at this time of the war, the tide had really turned for the Uboats...

[dougie995]

Hi Rick,

The last message from

Hi Rick,

The last message from U 47 to BdU was at 0454 on 7th March 1941. Prien radioed “am resuming pursuit” to BdU from grid quadrant AM 1249.

At 0505 U 47 torpedoed the British whaling factory ship Terje Viken with two torpedoes. The ship was later hit by U 99 and sunk seven days later by a British salvage tug.

Soon after the corvettes Arbutus and Camellia forced U 99, which was attacking the tanker Athelbeach with gunfire, to dive. Meanwhile, U 70 was rammed by the Dutch tanker Mijdrecht, damaging the U-boat’s conning tower but not the pressure hull. The corvettes Arbutus and Camellia attacked the damaged U 70, which resulted in her loss. The destroyers Wolverine and Verity then attacked U 99 in a nine-hour depth-charging. U A and U 37 then joined in the battle, coming into contact with the convoy at around 2200.

At some point during the 7th March 1941, U 47 was lost. Repeated requests were made by a worried BdU during the 7th March for U 47 to report her position, but to no avail. The Kriegstagebücher of the BdU records the following at 2300 on the 7th March with regard to U 47: “Boot meldet auf Frage nach Standort nicht mehr.” Roughly this means boat does not reply to questions about location.

The attack by Wolverine on U A (the attack that was thought to be on U 47) began at 0023 on the 8th. This was over an hour after Doenitz wrote of his concerns in the BdU log about U 47.

Although Prien and Schepke were killed, and Kretschmer captured, in March 1941, the U-bootwaffe posed a significant threat for quite a time after. They were still very much the hunters. By May 1943 the tide had certainly turned against them. During and after that month the U-boats were pretty much slaughtered.

Cheers,

Dougie

[rick]

That was a bad day

That was a bad day indeed for the Uboat waffe.....Three aces in one day....quite a loss.....I think that was definitely a turning point....the so called happy times were over......at least in the North Atlantic if you ask me.....Do you happen to recall the name of the Cpt. that was married to Doenitz daughter? Did he survive the war?

[dougie995]

Hi Rick,

Doenitz's son in law

Hi Rick,

Doenitz's son in law was Guenter Hessler, who survived the war. See -

http://www.uboat.net/men/hessler.htm

The loss of the three top commanders was a massive blow for the U-bootwaffe. Prien was especially famous, and regarded as a hero to the German people. The German public were informed of Kretschmer’s capture and Schepke’s death, but Hitler specifically ordered that news of Prien’s death be withheld. Apparently news of the loss, when combined with the news of the other two famous commanders, would be too big a blow to the nation’s morale. Not until the 23rd May 1941 was his death finally announced to the German public.

The delay in announcing Prien's death was one of the reasons for the various rumours that spread around Germany that he hadn't died at sea.

Cheers,

Dougie

[rick]

Hi Dougie.....thanx for the link....I

Hi Dougie.....thanx for the link....I have been to that site many times before..lots of good stuff there.....I appreciate all the info you have provided.....thats what makes this site great!! Rick

[rick]

Well ....just about done with

Well ....just about done with "Enemy Submarine" by Wolfgang Frank......a good read indeed.....thanx again for the suggestion Doug....You know...if it were not for the torpedo failures, Narvik could have been a whole different story....Prien would have had another record setting patrol....how frustrating that must have been.....I am assuming that these were mainly operational failures for the most part and not sabotage....it doesnt really elaborate......I know we had much the same problem with our torpedoes early on....faulty magnetic pistols I think...There are some good pictures of Prien and the U 47 in the book that I had not seen before....

[dougie995]

Hi Rick,

Glad you are enjoying

Hi Rick,

Glad you are enjoying the book. It is just as well the Germans had so much difficulty with their torpedoes. They may well have sunk the battleship Warspite (31,000 lt) on the Narvik patrol. Also the four ships fired at in Astafjord -

French Suffren-class cruiser (10,000 lt)
other cruiser (10,000 lt)
two transports (30,000-ton transports)

The loss of life could have been terrible, particularly the transport loaded with troops.

As assessment of U 47 war diaries shows that only 36% of torpedoes fired hit the target. Some were genuine misses while a lot of them were due to faulty torpedoes.

Just as well!

Cheers,

Dougie

[rick]

Absolutely....Lucky for us he wasnt

Absolutely....Lucky for us he wasnt sucessful....Are you saying that 36% of Priens total fired hit the target? I think I misunderstood you before.....I think the Southampton also came close to being sunk at Narvik....

[dougie995]

Hi Rick,

Thankfully they didn't get

Hi Rick,

Thankfully they didn't get to fire on the cruiser Southampton. I think that U 48 fired upon this same cruiser on the same day but the attack failed due to torpedo failures.

Yeah, only 36% hit. In the first 9 patrols, of 87 fired there were 31 hits. The worst patrols for failures were -

Patrol 3 - 3 hits from 14 fired.
Patrol 5 - 0 hits from 10 fired.

In patrol 9, which Frank was on, he mentions attacking a 20,000 tonner. Frank doesn't mention it in his book but they fired 5 torpedoes and all of them missed. I sense patrol 9 was very frustrating for Prien, especially with Frank on board.

Cheers,

Dougie

[rick]

Those are some interesting numbers......it

Those are some interesting numbers......it didnt elaborate in the book....where did you get those numbers Doug? You are a real wealth of information, again...I appreciate you sharing this with me....It would seem that aside from the Scapa Raid, Prien was not really in the same boat so to speak as Kretschmer........Do you happen to know what percent of torpedoes fired by Kretschmer were hits?? I would be interested in knowing that....I would venture to guess that he had a higher percentage given his style of getting right inside the convoy.....

[dougie995]

Hi Rick,

The figures are from

Hi Rick,

The figures are from the shooting reports in the boat's war diaries. Fehlschuß means failed shot - a miss. I don't have the U 99 war diaries so don't have a comparison with Kretschmer. Kretschmer did take over Prien's mantle as the Tonnage King, which would have irked the competitive Prien.

I'm guessing Kretschmer would have had a higher percentage as he was an exceptional commander.

According to the shooting reports in the war diaries, the torpedo firing officer during surface attacks was originally the IWO Endrass. When Endrass left, Prien chose IIWO Amelung von Varendorff (who had been with him since Scapa) to be the torpedo firing officer rather than the new IWO Hans-Werner Kraus.

However, I dare say Prien didn't have his feet up reading a book during the attacks. He must have made the attacks, with Endrass and von Varendorff assisting.

The torpedo firing officer during surface attacks was Prien himself.

Cheers,

Dougie

[rick]

Did Von Varendorff go down

Did Von Varendorff go down with U 47? In what capacity did Kraus serve then, if not IWO?...

[dougie995]

Hi Rick,

Kraus was the IWO

Hi Rick,

Kraus was the IWO on patrols 4,5,6,7 and 8. During this time Von Varendorff was the IIWO. But Prien chose his IIWO Von Varendorff to be the torpedo officer even though it would normally have been the IWO who fulfilled this duty. Not sure why.

After patrol 8 Kraus left to command U 83. He later commanded U 199, and survived the boat's sinking. He was captured, but managed to escape from a prison camp in the US. He was caught again.

Von Varendorff was the IWO of U 47 on patrol 9. After patrol 9 he left the boat to command U 213. He went down with U 213 in July 1942.

Cheers,

Dougie