support for the SC

[raalst]

Hi all,

I just wanted to express my thanks for the SC as it is.

this meaning that the SC aims to accomodate the newbie
without conveying some sort of 'be silent when the
expert speaks' attitude.
Who decides on who the expert is anyway ?

and of course without all that local US politics
chatter that other people (about 4.5 billon of them)
do not understand nor care for..

please do not give in to the temptation of
a "I am better than you" discussion with
(name says it all really) subpirates.
just focus on building model submarines.

thanks for the good work.

[aeroengineer1]

Ronald,

What you are seeing is

Ronald,

What you are seeing is that there is a difference in goals of the groups. There are those that are innovators, but too want to learn and innovate new things and those that want to do what has already been done. Another thing is that, while some of the people that have posted in what might seem to be an arrogant manner, it is part of a persona that they display, but what is not seen is their generosity. I have had the privilege to go and learn for a week form one that has been touted as the most arrogant person that there is on the submarine sites. I can tell you that I learned that he really is a great guy.

Another thing is that we are seeing a culture gap. It is very hard to bridge between cultures. Things that are said in one language in a joking manner when interpreted literally might be considered demeaning.

The last point is that some respect should be given to those that are the innovators. There are people who's ideas that we are copying that we give them no praise nor mention for what we are borrowing. In the academic community this is called plagiarism. Many peoples ideas have been taken without regard for where they came from, this is wrong.

So what does it boil down to? There are those that have given a lot and have not received much back for their efforts, so instead of sharing with all they tend to want to just keep it to a small select group (a prime example of this has just been witnessed here with the leaving of some wonderful modelers); then there is the group that is frustrated that they feel daunted by the small group and feel that they are not worthy to be admitted. The answer, there is not one, but a suggestion to those that are new to the submarine community; do some homework first. I think that I spent 6 months studying all the sites before I ever started to really start to ask questions. The probability that someone has already asked the question that you want to ask is high. A little elbow grease will usually yield an answer. In an area where plug an play is prevalent, it is not so in the submarine community. If you want that there are toys that can better suit your needs.

These are some of the issues at hand. Perhaps I have been blunt in the expressing of how I see it, but that is the way it is. You cannot solve a problem without stating directly what it is. It would be like a doctor that said, well he has a broken leg, but to reset the bone and cast it will hurt too much, so I will just put a bandage on it and tell him that it will be better.

Adam

[raalst]

Adam,

I understand what you

Adam,

I understand what you say and I am willing to believe that
postings are not showing 100% of any person.

nevertheless, I feel the community has been
split (for whatever cause), and now I think I see vindictive
remarks.

I do not care for reading that, I visit (many) forums to
learn about subs.

let's hope there is enough talent and passion to go round
for two forums/communities.

it's just my frustration that every club/community seems to
have to live through these petty power struggles and squabbles

and, indeed. most foreigners (like me) will have trouble
distinguishing jokes from abrasive remarks.
Niet iedereen is een geboren amerikaan, if you
know what I mean.
(no you don't. it means "not everyone is a born american")

[tabledancer]

Very good,well said.Both of you

Very good,well said.Both of you have very good points.Coming from a newbi I see good things in both places I will support both and keep my politics and pettyness in another place.Lets get back to having fun .

[don prince]

Gentlemen,

The vast majority of member

Gentlemen,

The vast majority of member and guest postings fully comply with regards to the forums' code of conduct. I think of it as inviting someone into my home... I don't insult a guest. All of us may not consider the language barrier. However, that's a two way street, and we all have to be aware of that issue and give a person the benefit of the doubt. This is a international hobby and I find it interesting to discuss technical issues with our local and international friends.

Kind Regards,
Don_



Edited By Don Prince on 1141264591

[dietzer]

Ronald,

Very well said.

I've been made

Ronald,

Very well said.

I've been made aware of the discussion going on over at SubPirates, and it makes me very sad. Some of those posting there have no clue, it seems. For example, they claim our membership is failing, but the opposite is true. Our numbers have been growing through the last few years, and so far our renewal numbers are ahead of where they were last year.

Adam,

I respect your opinions on the matter, and agree with some of them. There are major differences between the goals of SubPirates and the SubCommittee. SubPirates is aimed more towards the professional modellers, not the novice. Flame wars are not only tolerated there, but actively encouraged. That is a major source of the "culture gap" you mention.

The SubCommittee strives to be a family-friendly forum that encourages novices. That means we don't allow flame wars or bad language. Remember, some of our members are in junior high and high school. This is basically the anti-thesis of SubPirates. Furthermore, the SubCommittee covers a much broader spectrum of topics as well as age groups. We support R/C subs, static subs, submarine history, etc, not just professional quality modelling.

As for respect, we've always recognized the contributions of our experienced modellers. Every group builds upon the efforts of those who went before them. But to accuse us of plagarism is not accurate at all. Plagarism is theft, pure and simple, and no one here is stealing anything from anybody. Ideas expressed here in the forums and in the magazine were freely shared, and were meant to be shared. I've seen no evidence here of anyone claiming that something they innovated something that was really done by someone else.

As for giving credit where credit is due -- that has always been true here. But are you saying that everytime I mention the term WTC I have to say who invented it? That seems rather extreme to me. After all, do you acknowledge the inventors of the paper clip, the staple, or the zipper each time you use them?

As the saying goes, respect is earned. It is earned by one's words and one's actions, not just one's accomlishments. Some of the innovators you mention have furthered the hobby technically, but have also driven members not only from the SubCommittee, but also from the hobby by what they said in this forum before they left.

People like Skip Asay, Tim Smalley, Dr. Art Broder, Dave Welch, just to name a few -- they have earned my respect. These gentlemen, and many others within our ranks, have done great things to further our hobby, without attacking others at their whim. That, sir, is the difference between being among the elite, and being an elitist...

Carl

[anonymous]

Well guys I got to

Well guys I got to tell you. I guess I'm truly the bad guy now that I started Subpirates.

Subpirates was created as a free zone with no censorship, no warning system, no banning and yes the Thunder Dome created for those guys that want to talk about all interests they might share together beyond submarines.

If you don't care for it you don't have to go in that section. Stay out. I do for the most part and it's my own forum.

I can't and will not control the free will of others either (there's enough of that going on in America already). It goes against everything I believe in. I'm a free man.

And so are the rest you. Try to remember that.

Politically correct is a dirty thing to me. We would waste far less time and get more done if we all shot from the hip and didn't take things so darn personally. Like we did years ago back in WW2. Our finest hour as a nation, almost for gotten today.

Some people will put SC down. Most are not. After all raalst your over here putting subpirates down. Are you not? And you are a member of SP too.

So how fair would it be to put all of SC down because you put down SP? Fair? He ll know. There's great people here too.

You get good and bad everywhere you go. No matter what race, faith and beliefs there's always the good and the bad.

Did I put SC down? Did I ever? I'm a member here too don't forget.

There will always be vindictive remarks. EZone, this site, mine, RCU will all be the same at one time or the other. And to say I'm splitting the community is a false statement. It has been by personal choice of each individual to decide his or her own actions. Not mine, not SP. You are the keeper of your soul. I didn't twist anyone's arm to join subpirates.

I knew this might come up some day here. I remember all the vindictive remarks that were written here when a young gentleman asked for advise and content, for a forum and web site he wanted to start. Many of you were far more vindictive than anything I've ever seen on SP. All he asked was a simple and innocent question and you threw rocks at him as if there wasn't any room in the world for another sub web site. Of course there's room for more.

I for one don't want to see the hobby just stay a small little click. I want to expand it into a larger field. As a vendor I will make more income. Be able to make more kits and offer more for less with the increase in volume sales. I'm sure not a single vendor here would argue with me on that point. Many of these vendors like me are finding it hard these days to find a job or keep it. So why not pursue your passion and make some money at it too?

And don't give me that cra p about the unemployment being at an all time low and the economy is booming. If you want to by into that bull go ahead but jobs in hi tech fields are being swept away to other countries (to get it for less) at break neck speed. I'm one of the casualties. At 54 it's dam n hard to find work anymore. So rather than burden the public or complain about it I plan to make my own way and create my own job.

And about the experts. They're are experts. How did any of us learn a darn thing without them? You did it all on your own right? Wrong. So if you can't decide for yourself who an expert is how the he ll do you plan to learn anything about this hobby?

I'm not an expert, I've been in the sub modeling field for a little over a year. Yes I built 7 subs in 1 year. Two scratch built. The Type 17 sold me a lot of kits too and now I'm starting a full line of small vacuum formed sub kits the first being a 1/72 Blueback. And yes the masters are done and ready to mold. I don't talk about it, I do it. I've seen too much talk. Know what I mean?

I didn't learn from experts. I learned from what I call masters who earned the title because of the great work they do and they're willingness to share it with us all.

I learned from David Merriman, BigDave, Tim Smalley and Matt Thor. To name a few. These guys stood by me and are always there for me. All of them gave of themselves and there time to steer me along. So I will decide they are masters and or experts. It is my right to decide that as a free man. You can disagree if you want but if you do your not making sense to me.

I hold no grudges to SC or even those who might attack me or label me as a bad guy. The 100s of people that I have in turn helped with my many building threads on SC, EZone, Subpirates and the zillion emails might disagree with you though. What I learn I have passed down and will continue to help anyone who asks for it. I want to see other people have the joy and reward of building a good model and the satisfaction of seeing it function as planned. As dreamed of.

It's time I set the record straight here on SC. I just did. I will not comment on this subject again. Enough said.

Steve



Edited By U812 on 1141199089

[aeroengineer1]

I respect all opinions that

I respect all opinions that have been presented, and I think that the term professional modeler might be accurate to describe many of those that are on the active rolls of the subpirates site. The only thing that I disagree with is that high mindedness is encouraged at that site. What you are seeing is a group of guys that want to bring on board the next generation of innovators. These are the people that are supplying this hobby. You have represented there Thor/Atomic Subs, FX Models, Small World Models and others. These are the guys that have supplied this hobby, and quite frankly without them (the suppliers) there would be very little submarining going on. In an effort to bring on every one and be an all inclusive group you have alienated the top few. These guys are professionals, that to some that show they have true potential and desire to go forward, they share VERY VERY liberally. How is it if these guys are responsible for driving away the masses are still friends with the Europeans across the pond? I know that Steve, David and I communicate with many people there in Germany, France, and other places, yet the club here has managed to offend them due the SC's nondiscriminatory policies?

As for accusing the group of plagiarism, I think that you read into my comment something that was not there. But since you brought it up, in academia you must site every source that you use, even if you only took one line or number out of it. Do I think that we need to be as strict here? No, but an occasional mention of the name Merriman, oh no I said it, I said it again (line from Monty Python), Art, Matt Thor, Skip Asay, and other black listed names should be more frequent. Just for fun I searched for Merriman and found that the only people to recently mention him was a person that stated that he was building a Merriman Skipjack, a person asking about painting vids that Merriman has, and KevinMc, and Me. For a person that has products in many of the boats that we run he sure does not get much mention.

As for earning respect, I will have to respectfully disagree with you. I know of a poster that has many many posts and has spoken many words, but has yet to produce. Why are would one say that they are an active participant in the hobby of submarining if they are there to just talk. It is kind of like an engineer that has no knowledge of building things, that engineer is so far behind an engineer that can actually build the things that he designs. Actions and words go together.

To the point of swearing, I am a good church going Mormon guy. I do not swear myself, but I do not find it offesnive that others happen to do it. I do not see that the board is filled with four letter words. I think that I adds color and yes I think that it is a direct protest. when they do it, it is a show that they can. So they are not perfect, but if you come over and join, be prepared to be sworn in

As for the SC having a broader market, I think that you have missed some of the things that have been posted about submarine history, especially russian subs. I would say that it is the best collection that I have found in english is on the supbirates site. I will admit that there is a lack of static modeling and the subpirates so not sponsor local chapters.

With all that said, can both groups coexist peaceably, yes. I am sure that a few shots will be fired over the years, but I say yes. What I see happening is that the innovators and coming innovators will gravitate towards the subpirates and those that seek knowledge and club gatherings will come here. That is how I see it and I am done.

Adam



Edited By aeroengineer1 on 1141198952

[k225]

The important thing about any

The important thing about any hobby is the enjoyment and satisfaction you get out of it. For the most part I get a great kick out of meeting other modellers and seeing how they have tackled the challenges of this interesting hobby. The forums are usually the first introduction that many get to the hobby but they still don't come anywhere near the experience of actually seeing the real thing in action. Meeting such great modellers as Rick Tesky, Ben Cliffe, Ted Scrivens, and Helmut Sodkte at our local sub regatta and their willingness to share ideas has inspired me to attempt the hobby myself. These are great guys willing to share there knowledge people I enjoy being around.
Some of these guys are on the forums most are not, but they are at the local sub regatta and are accessable. I am sure that the rest of you guys are having the same experiences no matter what country you are in. Great people getting together to enjoy this hobby and meeting new friends.
You can't do that on the internet, you need real life to get yourself grounded.
Just look at the photos of SubRegatta 2005 you guys are having a good time thats what it is about. The same when you see events around the world.This is a hobby guys don't take it too seriously. Life is too important and short, as many of us have experienced to let misunderstandings get in the way.
Steve



Edited By k225 on 1141216890

[dietzer]

Adam and Steve,

I think you

[color=#000000]Adam and Steve,

I think you have both missed my point.

First off, Steve, I don't think you are the "bad guy" for starting SubPirates. I have never discouraged anyone from going to the SubPirates website. Several of my friends are members of both the SubCommittee and the SubPirates. I chose not to be a member of SubPirates because I simply don't have the time.

My point was that the goals of the two sites are different. The SubCommittee has chosen to run a family-friendly site, SubPirates has not. That doesn't make them bad or us good, that just makes us different.

Adam, no one has black-listed Merriman, or Thor, or anyone else who has left the SubCommittee. They left of their own free will]

[tmsmalley]

Hey guys. Many thanks for

Hey guys. Many thanks for all the comments. In Dave Merriman’s usual sweet and gentle style, by kicking over the flowerpot, he has started a lively discussion. If you would like to see his letter, go to www.subpirates.com

While most agree that the SC might need a kickstart; Dave’s idea of creating military-like ranks or a caste system - "untouchables" and all - is not the way to encourage new members and new members are the lifeblood of any organization. As a prime example, witness the Kiwanis Club (of which I was a member for many years), Rotary, Lions, Shriners and other service groups who didn’t actively foster young blood. They had to play catch-up for a decade until they got healthy again and some may never recover.

In the work-related professional organizations of which I am a member, the “elites” – the best of the best - are the ones who usually wind up doing the most for the group. The respect and recognition they earn is from the good work they do and in helping others. The only special titles they receive are if they run for office and then work their butts off in an official capacity.

Many of the hobbies that require some time and skill are stagnant right now. Maybe it’s the instant gratification mentality, the loss of mandatory shop class for school kids or something in the water. Happily, SC membership renewals are well ahead of last year’s numbers which I find encouraging, but certainly not enough to allow us to rest on our laurels.

We need to talk subs to anyone who might be interested. Stand in a booth at hobby shows, hand out brochures, recruit guys who are in similar hobbies but looking for something more challenging (like Steve Neill), get our mugs on TV when we have a fun run, and perhaps most importantly, mentor new guys just starting up who don’t know where to begin.

Newbies are intimidated enough without having to deal with fear of being flamed or being designated a seaman recruit for asking a "dumb" question. I sure asked my share of those in the beginning. I remember Art Meyer - who could be a "tad" cantankerous - even offering to help me through my "What sub kit should I get?" question phase with the help of Jim Butt, Matt Thor, Dave Merriman and dozens of others.

At various public sub runs, I have talked to a lot of guys who say that they would love to have an RC sub but don't have the confidence to dig into a full blown WTC / hull combo their first time out. Some may tell them to "Get out of my face, you don't deserve the view of my radiant countenance." The SubCommittee philosophy is "Sure you can! We'll help you get started."

Non-SC members have not been able to edit posts since the beginning of the new SubCommittee forum. I just learned that this was to help control some of the flame wars where non-SC members would go in and change their posts after starting a battle and then they’d back off and let mayhem ensue, scaring off potential members -I think I have this right.

Anyway, since the hardcore troublemakers disappeared years ago, I asked our web team to change this so registered forum members are allowed edit their posts, just like SC members. I had started this process yesterday morning after reading Adam Carlson’s well thought out ideas (and several others) before Dave nailed his thesis to the door.

Thanks to SC forum moderator Jeff LaRue’s wizardry, it is now a reality. Registered members may now edit their posts.
When I first heard from the German registered member who wanted to receive perqs usually reserved for dues-paying members, my first thought was – “Oh boy, here’s somebody else who wants a handout.” I admit to being leary of those who want something for nothing. I was wrong. Allowing someone to correct a typographical error or a broken link isn’t going to cost us anything; rather, it will help the forum stay current with the best and most accurate information. I hope he will accept my apology for being overzealous.

Most of us will never live up to the standards set by the pros, but who cares? A hobby is supposed to be fun and relaxing. My buddy the cardiologist doesn’t rip me because I'm not as proficient at CPR as he. He's a pro - he'd better be better than me or he is going to go broke.

In an electronics professionals forum most (all?) of us would be sitting at the back of the classroom with the likes of Skip Asay and Rick Galinson. Rick may have the most electronically advanced RC sub ever built by a hobbyist. If you’ve seen his dissertation on the SubRegatta DVD, you know what I mean. His electronics suite makes just about everyone else’s look like Fisher Price. And Skip invented most of what we use today. If it weren’t for him, I imagine that most of us would be playing golf or going fishing for a hobby. Those guys, along with other “quiet giants” just stay out of the limelight, do their thing and help anyone who asks for it.

After awhile, the same questions over and over can get to be annoying. I wish that there was a good basic RC submarine textbook that you could refer folks to that would have most, if not all of the answers for a sub newbie. So far, most efforts along those lines have been over the head of many wishing to get a start or just not enough to do that job. I hope that is something we can accomplish in my tenure as SC president. During a recent SC Executive Committee brainstorming session/teleconference we talked about that and a number of other ideas including a professional looking SC recruiting display to use at hobby trade shows, a mentoring process where certain guys would be the “go-tos” for certain topics, SC gear for sale on the website with on line e-commerce, and a lot more enhancements to the site coming (hopefully!) soon.

Regarding political correctness - I don’t see not being allowed to curse on the club’s public forum as “PC”, I see it as good manners. While I let rip with a few beauties from time to time, I try no to cuss in a mixed audience. We do have kids visiting the site and I don’t want the SC to contribute to the MTV-ing of our youth. That’s happening fast enough already.

The SubCommittee needs to be inclusive due to the nature of being a multi-national organization supporting hobbyists of all skill levels. We have many members who don’t care about RC, but build static models, collect sub books, memorabilia and so on.

I value Dave’s opinion and friendship. Same with Matt and the rest of the “pros”. If they didn’t care about the SC, they wouldn’t be griping about it. I also don’t think its possible to make everyone happy – if it were, that would only lead to mediocrity anyway.

I’ve always been a big believer that other RC submarine websites had their place. That ‘s why I started RC-Submarines.com. The more the merrier, baby! More sub photos, more sub instructions, more vendor listings, more how to’s, and more guys getting into the hobby is a good thing.

More bubbleheads create more demand for quality hull kits as well as beginner models. More demand, more reward for vendors to stay in an often-frustrating business. More prosperous vendors, more toys to buy and play with – woo hoo!

I think SubPirates serves a useful purpose, so does the SubCommittee. As someone else mentioned, just because those purposes may not be perfectly congruent, doesn’t mean that one is bad or one is good. Or that a guy who is a casual builder with limited time, money or ability has any less right to be a valued member than someone who does it for a living.

Oh Carl, while I appreciate being lumped in with the Asays, Broders and LaRues of the sub world, my modeling / engineering skills are second (third?) rate at best. I just go to guys who are good modelers and beg or borrow what I need to know to cobble together something that works --kinda.

Keep the constructive ideas flowing folks. Shoot me an email, call, or send a carrier pigeon! I promise to listen and reply.

Best to all!

Tim Smalley

"You're in it now, up to your neck!" - Gregory Peck to David Niven in "The Guns of Navarone"

[elec_tech]

Tim,

Thank you for a

Tim,

Thank you for a very objective and well thought out "presidents address".

As a rookie here (5 months) and to the hobby (8 months) I appreciate the outstreached hand you are offering. If all the senior builders/designers/inventors can start to follow your lead, I am confident that I will be able to learn more and build more and contribute more to this site and maybe someday be able to help a rookie like myself.

There has been a lot of dirt passed through the air over the last few days. Yet I think you targeted most of the sore spots and provided insight into some of the past histories and how as a community sharing two homes we can move forward and stear this ship in a new direction.

I hope your tenure as president is a long and fruitfull one.

Dan

[anonymous]

Tim,

Thanks my friend. Lets just

Tim,

Thanks my friend. Lets just get building and sharing. It's what I like best.

Steve

[thordesign]

http://www.subcommittee.com/forum/icon_surprised.gif

[tmsmalley]

Geez Matt - if you

Geez Matt - if you hadn't been overpaying your dues by $4 all these years, maybe you could have afforded to take the long suffering Mrs. Thor out for a nice steak dinner before now (It's $26 in the US not $30)

Seriously, thanks for the post Matt. Wayne, Carl, Bob, Bill, Don and I want to hear all the ideas, all the arguments, all the background info. We appreciate getting suggestions to accompany the gripes. We may not always be right, but we will be pitching hard all the way and if we mess up we want to hear about it sooner rather than later so we can fix it.

Now get off the couch and start making some new hulls ya lazy bum!

Best,
Tim