kursk - about the submarine, modelling,history

[metal-x]

There is an R/C Model

There is an R/C Model available. This is a good reminder for me. I will send the model and molds to Lee Upshaw this week. The Oscar is a neat, but BIG, model. I meant to send this beast off to Lee months ago, but never got to it. I will make sure it gets there this week as it is packed and ready to go. Contact Lee for details.

great !

[Guest]

because russian do a demonstration

[quote]

because russian do a demonstration of the most advance torpedo]



sorry i can be more clear due to english translation

shkval: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/220813.shtml

[quote]because russian do a demonstration of the most advance torpedo]

Sorry, but that sounds like nonsense to me. Why authorize an American sub to fire a torpedo during a Russian naval exercise? If the Americans were concerned about possible shkval sales to China, why not submit a formal protest? It's certainly safer than risking an international incident (to say nothing of war) if the Kursk were torpedoed by an American SSN.

For that matter, where's the evidence that this Russia-China deal was taking place? As I mentioned before, since the French program considered the Mk. 48 torpedo, the bread-and-butter weapon of the US submarine force, to be "ultra-secret", I doubt the authenticity of other information presented. The documentary sounded like nothing more than an attempt to paint Americans as the bad guys, when we had absolutely no involvement in the tragedy.

Also, where's the proof that the USS Memphis was in for repairs, and that those repairs were sustained from a collision with another submarine?

Apologies if I come off as rough, but I have a problem with programs which try to parlay false information as factual. The FOX documentary on the Moon landing "conspiracy" comes to mind...

[anonymous]

have a lokk here OSCAR

have a lokk here OSCAR II

Gantu

[metal-x]

because russian do a demonstration

[quote][quote]

because russian do a demonstration of the most advance torpedo]



sorry i can be more clear due to english translation

shkval: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/220813.shtml

because russian do a demonstration of the most advance torpedo]

Sorry, but that sounds like nonsense to me. Why authorize an American sub to fire a torpedo during a Russian naval exercise? If the Americans were concerned about possible shkval sales to China, why not submit a formal protest? It's certainly safer than risking an international incident (to say nothing of war) if the Kursk were torpedoed by an American SSN.

For that matter, where's the evidence that this Russia-China deal was taking place? As I mentioned before, since the French program considered the Mk. 48 torpedo, the bread-and-butter weapon of the US submarine force, to be "ultra-secret", I doubt the authenticity of other information presented. The documentary sounded like nothing more than an attempt to paint Americans as the bad guys, when we had absolutely no involvement in the tragedy.

Also, where's the proof that the USS Memphis was in for repairs, and that those repairs were sustained from a collision with another submarine?

Apologies if I come off as rough, but I have a problem with programs which try to parlay false information as factual. The FOX documentary on the Moon landing "conspiracy" comes to mind...

No problem adam ,good disscussion
like i explain they torpedoed by defense thinking the kursk will launch the shkval after the collision on them..
(they era the sound of the armed shkval)
there was pic of the menphis who was starting to be repaired
and pic of an hole in the kursk.
and why they found a piece of us submarine ?
why they put mines around ?
why the kursk when having the problem at the front of the sub don't stop moving in the water and go up ?
don't know the truth but it might be interesting..
i don't think there is country of good guys..and every one can make error.
in france we eplosed the greenpeace boat

[Guest]

The link you posted made

The link you posted made mention of the Kursk only with regards to the likely accidental explosion of one of the torpedoes onboard. Nothing was mentioned about firing one of the shkvals, prompting the American boat to return fire (which is unlikely, since it was nowhere near K-141). No evidence has been presented proving that the Memphis was in for repairs sustained from colliding with another submarine (please address how a 9,000-ton 688 can survive ramming an 18,000+ -ton Oscar II without sinking first). And there is no proof the hole in the side of the Kursk's hull is the result of a torpedo impact.

Even if the Memphis had collided with the Kursk (not likely, since she was several miles away), the Kursk wouldn't have had reason to attack. Most likely, the American SSN would have either surfaced immediately after the incident if damage was too great, or would have attempted to leave the scene. There's also no precedent for the scenario you describe.

[metal-x]

i was speaking about a

i was speaking about a program TV, i didn't post a link on a story..
this is not the same.
Perhaps a day we will know truth

[wayne frey]

Matt,
That was good news

Matt,
That was good news about the Oscar hull getting out and avalible again. Lee, how long before this one comes out?
There is a SCM that is trying to interest a builder into doing a 1/96 Delta IV. He has some good detail information. But again, the market is pretty slow for the bigger hulls right now.
Still would like to see one.....

[anonymous]

Sorry... gotta chime in here.

Sorry... gotta chime in here. This thread makes X-files seem rational.

There have been other cases of at-sea collisions between US and Soviet boats at a *much* more tense period of time between our two countries than exists today. None of these involved the exchange of weapons.

The Russians simply cheaped out on their choice of torpedo technology, against better advice, and it cost lives. Period.

The scenario described by this "documentary" sounds like a second rate producer in France taking advantage of current US-French relations to make a buck. Before anyone accuses me of being "racial", we have the same problem here as well, i.e. Fahrenheit 9/11.

My opinion? Doesn't pass the smell test.

[metal-x]

it was much interview of

it was much interview of us and russian people...
but ok it smells bad....that i don't want to speak more about this interesting sub and history moment.

[himszy]

I propose we do a

I propose we do a scale version of both sides at the next sub regatta. Any one willing to give up a sub or two?

[anonymous]

LA vs Oscar at 20

LA vs Oscar at 20 paces? Sounds good...
Brings us back to the original question, where to find a 1/96 Oscar?? Sounds like we have to wait for Lee for the experiment.

In the meanwhile, I still like Wayne's suggestion of a Delta in that scale...

[metal-x]

I propose we do a

I propose we do a scale version of both sides at the next sub regatta. Any one willing to give up a sub or two?

great and do a video !

[Antoine]

No evidence, no prooves in

No evidence, no prooves in this TV doc, but really interesting. It shows some never seen before footages !

The theory of an US fire is not incredible regarding the facts exposed.
I am not taking any side, pros or cons...But this hole in the Oscar hull is very odd, Adam Leet, you are right the mk48 is not a secret weapon, but in this doc it was about an advanced mk48 with a depleted uranium warhead ("à la" A-10 30mm shells).
The fact that the soviets....oops....the russians said to the world the sea was too bad for a rescue operation whereas it is prooven the weather was fair and the sea calm, the fact they lied about the weapon loadout of the sub, the fact they didnt want to raise the bow, the fact they destroyed the bow underwater after, they fact they discovered a note written by a sailor saying "they killed us", many many things very strange. It is maybe like an xfiles movie but who knows what really happened ??...only few and most of them are sadly dead now.

It is maybe a french doc but it is not a reason to be naive and to think that every little thing France will say/do will be against USA. Stop the US paranoia now, it is time to turn a page...

[Guest]

The French program reminds me

The French program reminds me of the FOX documentary aired a few years ago purporting to show new "proof" that the Apollo Moon landings were faked. What was shown was nothing more than fabrications, misstatements and outright lies (something I would not put past the topic of our discussion). Where are the photos showing the American 688 in port after sustaining damage from collision with another boat? Where's the supposed debris from the 688 imbedded in the Kursk's hull?

K-141's bow was likely destroyed due to an explosion in the torpedo room. The damage was such that the Norwegian salvage company had to sever the bow section forward of the conning tower to facilitate raising the rest of the sub (in order to recover the dead crewmen, secure the weapons on board, to say nothing of preventing leakage from both of the PWRs aboard).

I also doubt the authenticity of the supposed note claiming that the Americans did it. Was the note authenticated by Russian authorities? Did close relatives verify the handwriting was that of the dead sailor's?

I do not doubt the authenticity of the documentary because it is French in origin (though there are anti-American sentiments in France; but that is for another discussion). I doubt it because it presents ridiculous claims and wild suppositions based upon circumstantial evidence and coincidences. No photos have come out showing the damaged American sub (I'm still not understanding the logic behind the argument that Kursk fired on the 688 after the collision; that's never happened before). No debris from the 688 have been found in the K-141's hull. All evidence points to incompetence on the part of Russian leadership with regards to the slow pace of the rescue operations, and does *not* point to a conspiracy to hide the facts of a fictitious collision between K-141 and an American submarine.

As I said before, the documentary has no more credibility than the FOX Moon landing hoax conspiracy theory bollocks. (A DU warhead on the Mk. 48? Sources please?)

[himszy]

No i'm not taking part.

No i'm not taking part. No. 1 i'm in the uk so too far too travel. No. 2 I already got 2 subs on the bench so I don't need anymore.