Model Submarine Market for Manufacturers

[bob the builder]

It's amazing how easy it

[color=#000000]It's amazing how easy it really is to get money if you really want it.

Someone had mentioned financing an RC sub package, and I see no reason why you couldn't. My brother in law and I are venturing into decorative wall fountains that we manufacture and sell in the $2000 price range. If a person finances these units, they are looking at less than $80 per month with a 10% buyout over three years.

Car companies have been doing this for years. I'm sure it wouldn't take anything for our "quality" vendors to package up a complete sub kit (fibreglass hull, WTC, electronics, radio, etc...) and sell it for "only $99 per month"!

If I'd have thought about it, and had the option available to me back then, I'd probably have done it three years ago for Custom Replica's 1]

[novagator]

heck if more of the

heck if more of the venders accepted credit cards (not Thordesign) but the others, that would help alot as well. Most venders such as Small world miniatures, D&E, Mike's sub works are all cash, which prevents people from spacing out the payments.

[bcliffe]

Matt / Lee / Skip,

As

Matt / Lee / Skip,

As a client of all three of you I hope each of can turn the tables on this issue. I think once people get exposed to the hobby they get hooked, at least I did.

To me it is all about providing an upgrade path.

May I suggest the development of a cheap in the water concept sub, this sub is not designed to look like anything in particular but it goes up and down left and right. The sub could literally be a WTC with the appropriate control appendages.

The selling factor (other then price) is the body of the concept sub could then be used as a WTC in a scale fiberglass hull sub.

My 2 cents ... hope it works out for you guys.

Cheers
BC

[thordesign]

All,

Excellent comments and observations. Please

All,

Excellent comments and observations. Please let me make it clear that I am in no way throwing in the towel and this was not the reason I posted the original message. I posted as I am curious as to what the SC members are thinking, which is most important, as well as to what the other manufacturers are thinking. I am commited to the growth and development of the business,but it is becoming painfully obvious that I/we need to change the way I/we am/are conducting my/our own business/es. I fully plan on maintaining my current line. With the idea in mind though, that the fully detailed fiberglass model swill remain in the vast minority, I am exploring new methods and products.

Ben, stay tuned.



Edited By ThorDesign on 1081294500

[anonymous]

Hi Matt,
This is one of

Hi Matt,
This is one of the most interesting and important threads in a long time. I have purchased products from you, Skip Asay and Lee Upshaw in the past, and think you and many of the people who have responded on this thread have hit the nail on the head. There aren't too many guys out in model submarine land who wouldn't love to own the fabuluous, jewel-like fiberglass models, but as they said in the movie "The Graduate"...plastic are the future. We would all love to own a Rolls Royce, but most of us settle for a Ford because there are other demands on our disposable income. Particularly for attacting new and young guys. ARF is the future.

[rarmada]

ARD is the future!

Axel

ARD is the future!

Axel

[Guest]

Hi Matt,

I would like to

Hi Matt,

I would like to make couple of comments, if it helps.

I live in Germany, near Muenhen.
About year ago I wanted to buy your Alfa and build it as static modell first with prospect to make it RC later. Unfortunatelly, I been spooked off, because you did not ship to Germany (and France).

There is local Hobby Shop in the sity (Augsburg) where I live. They sell everything and most popular procucts are r/c raicing cars and aircrafts. There only Robbe U-47 and Seawolf kits available for submarine modellers. But this is not the point. The point is that along huge number of r/c modells enthusiasts only r/c submarine guys organized and meet each other on every Saturday morning. I really inspired by what I see. The quality still the king over here.

So, European market. I beleive there is the room for quality kits, ones they could be delivered and promoted properly.

Another country worth to have a look at is Russia. The only kit I saw in Moscow, in the biggest hobby shop was, again, Robbe U-47. And the new breed of russians do not read price tags. Even bult subs would be in demand.

Regards,
Boris

[skip asay]

While all of the reasons

While all of the reasons mentioned for slumping sales are valid, I think that the economy is most at fault. Not counting SubRegatta, I attend trade shows on the east coast, west coast, and midwest which allows face to face conversations with a huge number of people. The number of folks suffering hard financial times is pretty large. True, our society has gravitated toward instant gratification but there are still quite a few who would rather build than just put glue, paint, and a charger in the kit box, shake it up, and pull out an assembled, painted, and charged boat.

It may sound like a blatant sales pitch but in answer to those calls for an “all inclusive” kit, the Albacore has been around since 1998 and has been resposible for bringing a good number of “bubbleheads” into the fold. In terms of dollars and cents, less than $700 can get you a complete sub kit (just add tools, glue, paint, time). That’s the Deluxe Package and includes radio, battery, speed control, and APC-4. And the Basic kit and Basic Package are even less if you already have the electronics. True, the Dumas Akula can be had for less but you also get a whole lot less.

But kit sales, as well as component sales, have dropped off substantially in the past 2 years which coincides pretty well with the Enrom debacle which put a lot of people on notice that their financial future might not be all that they had hoped for.

Another benefit of doing trade shows is that I get a chance to talk to vendors in other markets not related to boats or subs. The concensus is the same - virtually everybody’s sales are down.

Being an optimist (usually), I believe that things will turn around. This is not the first time in the last 13 years that the economy has caused a dip in sales nor will it be the last. But this time is definitely the worst!

Skip Asay
SubTech

[thordesign]

Skip, my friend. You definitely

Skip, my friend. You definitely set the standard with the Albacore. My hat is off to you. The kit was and still is, in my opinion the most complete kit available and one of the best, if not the best buy in the market. You set the trend and the rest have followed!

I sincerely hope you are right about the economy.

[PaulC]

Guys,

Isn't the interest in ARD

[color=#000000]Guys,

Isn't the interest in ARD what we wanted, vendors included]

[anonymous]

"Will large scale, detailed sub

"Will large scale, detailed sub kits (greater than 1/96, non-SSN submarines) sell ? I think so. But they were never the bread and butter kits anyway. When the subject is right and the kit is exceptional, people will pay. And in that instance, since your market is not the ARD crowd, vendors must make sure they get the right price (and profit). "

Wonderful discussion here. I have been reading and reflecting on what has been written here with interest.

Possible ideas of model subjects? I think models should fit in a car trunk, generally small submarines built in larger scales might be attractive. Has to be 'fun'. Trend moving away to non-hull of revolution shapes? Like the SubTech 'Marlin'. Single screw good, twin screw subjects fine too, they are not more complex, just more expensive (twin electronic speed controls). Smaller hulls, less betting on the farm in epoxy outlay by kit producer.

Possible ideas?
Number of screws = *,**, ***

A German Type II in 1/32 scale - 52 inches length **
A German Type XVIIB in 1/32 scale - 51 inches long. *
A German Type XXI in 1/48 - 63 inches long **
An American L, K, or H class. 1/32 scale - 61 inches long. **
German UB II in 1/32 scale - approx. 50 inches? *
French Arethuse class in 1/40 - 49 inches long. *
Russian (Soviet) Pike class 1/32 scale - 52 inches? **
Soviet Foxtrot -1/72 - 49 inches long. ***
Soviet Foxtrot -1/60 - 59 inches long. ***
Swedish Draken class - 1/40 - 67 inches long *
Japanese Type A midget submarine **
Italian CB midget submarine *
Swedish Sjoorman (X-stern) 1/40 scale - 50 inches long. *
German Type 212 (X-stern) 1/40 - 54 inches long? *
Japanese Type D 'Koryu' 1/24 scale 43 inches long * (or) **

No more duplication of model subjects would be another direction. Too many type VII's out there to choose from. Too many HUGE hulls out there, too many half started projects never to see light out of shop. Smaller hulls in larger scales. Easier to complete kit, test, and handy turning in either pool or pond important. SSBN models too long and turn poorly.

Steve Reichmuth

[anonymous]

Hi guys,

You all make wonderfull

Hi guys,

You all make wonderfull ships but you're US-based. If I want one I have to pay a lot more taxes and such before I have 'm here in The Netherlands (Europe). A plan from Deepsea costs literally twice as much as in the US before I have it here.

I guess it's the same reason why there aren't many piston tanks from Engel in the US. They are a lot cheaper here and a lot more common. Europe has a big submarine-community, with a lot of scratch builders and kit-bashers/remodellers. It's not only the "cheap" Robbe's and Dumasses, but also the small market you work on (not that the US is small in size, you know what I mean).

Just my thoughts.

Danny van Dijk
Rotterdam, Netherlands, Europe

[novagator]

"Will large scale, detailed sub

"Will large scale, detailed sub kits (greater than 1/96, non-SSN submarines) sell ? I think so. But they were never the bread and butter kits anyway. When the subject is right and the kit is exceptional, people will pay. And in that instance, since your market is not the ARD crowd, vendors must make sure they get the right price (and profit). "

Wonderful discussion here. I have been reading and reflecting on what has been written here with interest.

Possible ideas of model subjects? I think models should fit in a car trunk, generally small submarines built in larger scales might be attractive. Has to be 'fun'. Trend moving away to non-hull of revolution shapes? Like the SubTech 'Marlin'. Single screw good, twin screw subjects fine too, they are not more complex, just more expensive (twin electronic speed controls). Smaller hulls, less betting on the farm in epoxy outlay by kit producer.

Possible ideas?
Number of screws = *,**, ***

A German Type II in 1/32 scale - 52 inches length **
A German Type XVIIB in 1/32 scale - 51 inches long. *
A German Type XXI in 1/48 - 63 inches long **
An American L, K, or H class. 1/32 scale - 61 inches long. **
German UB II in 1/32 scale - approx. 50 inches? *
French Arethuse class in 1/40 - 49 inches long. *
Russian (Soviet) Pike class 1/32 scale - 52 inches? **
Soviet Foxtrot -1/72 - 49 inches long. ***
Soviet Foxtrot -1/60 - 59 inches long. ***
Swedish Draken class - 1/40 - 67 inches long *
Japanese Type A midget submarine **
Italian CB midget submarine *
Swedish Sjoorman (X-stern) 1/40 scale - 50 inches long. *
German Type 212 (X-stern) 1/40 - 54 inches long? *
Japanese Type D 'Koryu' 1/24 scale 43 inches long * (or) **

No more duplication of model subjects would be another direction. Too many type VII's out there to choose from. Too many HUGE hulls out there, too many half started projects never to see light out of shop. Smaller hulls in larger scales. Easier to complete kit, test, and handy turning in either pool or pond important. SSBN models too long and turn poorly.

Steve Reichmuth

You need to add a Nice Goff Nautilus kit. Its a beautiful sub that everyone loves but no one makes, other than a Engle.

[seaphoto]

Getting back to the meat

[color=#000000]Getting back to the meat of this thread]



Edited By seaphoto on 1081455821

[thordesign]

Kurt,

I tried to make it

Kurt,

I tried to make it very, very clear that I was not complaining in any way, shape, or form. I am stating my observations, and from the responses of the other vendors, they see the very same thing.

Many of your suggestions are underway such as expanded advertising. You are correct, this is an absolute must!!

This hobby has changed dramatically over the last few years. However, I do firmly believe that a product change is required to continue to survive in this market. I, am, also working on that. But, with that said, most of us do not have the deep pockets that Robbe, Krick, and Revell for that matter, have so I was throwing this out to see what others are seeing to verify that the direction I am about to embark upon is making sense. I am getting ready to spend a ton of dough on a single new product. Enough money to buy a very nice european luxury car. By far the most capital intensive project I have ever embarked upon for ThorDesign. It makes me very nervous in doing so, that is why I thought I had better test the waters before I ,literally, throw my boat in. This product will either make me or break me(ThorDesign). There is no middle ground. Expanding my current line of hull kits is the quickest way out of business, in my humble opinion. In this matter Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is, in my opinion, insane and financial suicide.

You are absolutely right about the SC being a tiny little group. It seems as though it is getting smaller as we go. Any company who rests their entire market on the SC will not have much income, that is for sure.

There have been some excellent comments here. I appreciate everyone's comments.








Edited By ThorDesign on 1081451187