Model Submarine Market for Manufacturers

[thordesign]

If you have not noticed the market for R/C model submarines has changed greatly over the last 3 years. Dumas, Robbe, & Krick have all jumped into the market with their very innovative kits which have changed the landscape. If you ask me, Skip Asay is the man who started this revolution and is due full credit and congratulations for the innovative technology that has gone into his wonderful Albacore and Marlin kits.

I have been to a few regattas over the last few years and lots of model shows, and literally hundreds of hobby shops as I have traveled around the country working. More and more of the vacuum formed kits are showing up all the time as less and less of the more complicated, & detailed fiberglass kits with WTCs. In my local hobby shop they have sold over 40 Dumas kits in the last 18 months, along with a dozen or so U-47 kits and have a waiting list for the Type XXI that is due out any time. I started poking around a bit and was able to get some sales figures for the U-47 over last year and the numbers from my standpoint as a manufacturer/vendor are staggering. At the same time sales of Fiberglass kits has plummeted to the worst level in many years for my company and I know of a couple of others that are feeling the pinch of reduced sales as well. I am not complaining here, it is simply a fact.

I made the terrible mistake of thinking that this was mostly due to the downturn in the economy. In part, it is, but not entirely. I am now of the mind that I have become a dinosour. The fiberglass kits are no longer the preferred product. Expensive and complicated kits are no longer the norm, they have become the exception. The norm is the easily accessible, more affordable, and less detailed kits that can be assembled in a few evenings.

I posted the Type XXI release message several days ago, and the response was so poor I am rethinking the release of the kit entirely and rethinking my entire product line. I will certainly continue the production of the kits currently in my line, but any future glass kits are certainly in doubt.

This is not a note complaining about the market. Far from it. This is a note to the manufacturers and the SC in general. In my opinion, we are being beaten at the sales counter because we are tending to hold onto what has worked in the past, which is not necessarily what is working now or in the future (I count me as the most guilty in this). We need to get innovative. We have not changed much in the last 10 years. Well, all of us manufacturers need to get busy! The market is there. I hate to say this, but 10 years ago the US manufacturers led the pack in bringing innovative products to the market place, I do not know if I can make that same claim today. Electronics is probably the only exception to this. This is certainly not to say that others outside of the US have not made very significant contributions.

I welcome any constructive comments, ideas, or suggestions.





Edited By ThorDesign on 1081200285

[novagator]

Matt,

I hope you continue your

Matt,

I hope you continue your line and expand it, they are beautiful works of art. I love my Alfa, and would no way trade it for a Dumas kit, I don't think it is so much the complication of the kits, but the fact that its hard to get an all inclusive kit.

Look at the airplane and helicopter craze, people are spending the costs of a car on a new jet with a turbine engine.

There is a market for the cheap kits like dumas, and the top end like Engle, but i think the market wants are all inclusive kits.

Just look at the RC car hobby, it use to be that people bought kits and spent weeks building them. Now they want ARF or ARD kits, but it doesn't mean they want a cheap looking car made of cheap parts.

Maybe, its just the demand for a more inclusive kit. I would have definitely bought an all inclusive kit if you offered one, but now I am shopping for an WTC and I am more confused than ever trying to find the right one for me.


People today are more for convience than anything else.

Hey I reserve the right to be completely right or completely wrong or somewhere in between.

[btrippis]

Matt, Being new to r/c

Matt, Being new to r/c subs and the Sub Committee. I have
a comment to share. I came arcoss a Sub Tech Albacore kit and made an impulse buy at a local Hobby shop in San Diego. It was easy to complete and get it in the water and start
using it. I had little or no experience building r/c subs. Skip had done all the engineering and layout for me.I'm glad I
started with such a complete kit and at an affordable
entry price. Just my experience. Others may vary.

Regards, Brian Tripp

[novagator]

i found this place looking

i found this place looking for a nautilus model a couple of years ago, and then i found Matt's place and really liked the Alfa and seawolf. Then a couple of years later, i could afford a kit.

[Scale Shipyard / WLU]

Hi Matt]



Edited By W.L. Upshaw

[color=#000000]Hi Matt]



Edited By W.L. Upshaw / Scale Shipyard on 1081403889

[thordesign]

Hi Lee,

You summed it up

Hi Lee,

You summed it up much better than I! We see the very same thing happening.

[tom spettel]

Matt i have to agree

Matt i have to agree with Novagater. entry level kits are importent but one wants to move up to a more detailed kit as
the intrest growes. like in model aircraft there are the ARF's
and then you work your way up to a Bob violet model (very high end kits!!) I would say keep plugging away Matt you have a good thing going
Tom

[thordesign]

Tom,

I agree with you that

Tom,

I agree with you that is what ishould be the logical step. But sales do not reflect that happening. Lee and I cannot invest thousands of $$$ into new kits that no one is buying. When Skip first introduced the Albacore, I definitely saw a noticable increase in kit sales. That has slowly dwindled away over the last few years. What I see happening is with peoples reduced hobby time and money, they are buying A kit like the Robbe U-47 and that is where it stops. Of course there is always an exception. There are still a few folks who decide to move up and purchase a more complicated and detailed kit.

I think John (Novagator) above nailed it right on the head. Folks are loooking for a complete kit in a box that is attractive and affordable. The rest of the criterial such as materials, durability, & detail seem to have become secondary issues.

The model airplane market has gone the very same way. ARF kits sell like crazy, but the built up balsa kits do not sell well at all anymore.

[mit]

If I may add a

If I may add a third perspective here.

Do not forget the second hand market.

I had mentioned in another post the plethora of kits, hulls, and WTC's that have flooded ebay and other outlets. These are from people that are exiting the hobby of submarining.

The market is flooded with second hand equipment and people are getting rid of them for very very low prices.

However, I do believe that all these new entry level Dumas owners will want to upgrade to something better.

This is the same effect companies like GWS had on the model aircraft industry when they began offering $30 foam models that could be built and flown for less than $100.

All these folks wanted something better and began spending the extra money for performance, quality, etc.

I see the same thing happening here. The question, I guess, is how soon ?

I hope for the sake of companies like Matt's and Lee's that will be sooner than later.

Nick

[tmsmalley]

The biggest competition for our

[color=#000000]The biggest competition for our vendors are the golf courses, bicycle stores, fern bars, and restaurants. These are the dudes that eat up the expendable dollars that Lee is talking about. Anyone who gets the consumer into RC hobbies is our friend. Most of us started building something RC other than subs, right?

The hobby really needed a $200-$400 / easy to build / mass marketed in every hobby shop / better than a $20 pool toy / complete sub kit for Dad and Junior to start with. Skip has a good thing with the Albacore kit but he is unable to put them in nearly every hobby shop in the country like Dumas and Robbe can. They can make 'em cheap and quick - by the hundreds. At least now there are kits in stores so people know there are such thing as RC submarines. Woo Hoo!

I have dealings at work with "real" boat manufacturers and dealers all over the U.S. and they say much the same thing about so-called package deals.

Back in the old days, a potential customer would have to go one place to get the boat hull, another to get an outboard motor (and hoped you got one that would work well with your hull), and then pick a trailer out of a lot in back of the marine store. There were a certain number of folks who would go through all of that, but the market got saturated.

The boat manufacturers and dealers were able to recover from a major downturn in the recreational marine market a few years ago by starting to put together "inexpensive" packages that people could come in and buy without having to go the ala carte route and risk getting items that wouldn't work together (and expose their ignorance.)

Now, for their first boat purchase, folks can buy the "Fish and Ski Package" where they get a boat, motor, gas tank, trailer, fire extinguisher, life vests, water skis, tow rope and suntan lotion. No guessing, no hoping you don’t pick the wrong motor or trailer, and you can do it in an hour instead of taking all Saturday using the Chinese menu method of buying. It’s only natural for tyros to want to buy something without having to pick one from column A and one from column B. And - they have financing available.

THEN, after they get their "feet wet" for a few years and get more comfortable in the recreational boating environment, dealers tell me that some of the customers come back and get the larger boat, with a bigger motor and so on. Even the ones who don't come back serve a useful marketing purpose to the boat dealers. The families who don't buy a bigger, fancier boat are still out there riding around having fun and showing other potential boaters how much fun it is.

I think there is a corollary in the RC sub market. I suspect (and hope, for our vendors’ sake) some of the people buying the Dumases and the Robbes will eventually be back to get a beautiful quality fiberglass hull from Matt or Lee, then go to one of the "Daves" to get a WTC, then dial up Al or Skip to get a radio outfit and electronics and then email Mike Shubar for some parts. But to expect the average busy/lazy/financially tapped out/wants-it-right-now consumer to do plunk down over $1300 and go searching all over the Internet to find the parts you need to finish the project as a first step in RC subs isn’t very realistic. Some vendors just make buying a complete sub kit too difficult.

But the guy who already has taken the first step and put together a Dumas Akula, has made a some kind of commitment to the hobby. If he likes what he sees and wants to do more with a REAL RC sub, he is ready to make the next step. Unfortunately he isn't a member of the SubCommittee and doesn't know where to go to get more information. He probably doesn't even know that "good" sub kits exist or where to buy one.

A start would be getting Dumas and Robbe to put a SubCommittee brochure in every box they sell. At the 2003 SubRegatta Skip told me that he is on good terms with the prez of Dumas and would ask him to do just that. We even supplied the brochures - no charge. I think I sent Skip about 1,000 copies awhile back. I don’t know if that has happened yet but when/if it does, it will give the Dumas buyers a place to go to find out more about the hobby and find out that there are really good hulls and WTCs and radios and other fun gizmos. How? Because they will see them advertised on this website and in the SCR.

For a better fiberglass sub package, how about Matt, DM3 and Skip putting together a wtc/hull/electronics package all in one kit. You plunk down $X,XXX and you leave with EVERYTHING you need - right down to the radio. Lee and Dave Manley could do something similar on the left coast. Have easy term financing available. Many banks will help small businesses set up financing for their customers and even give a little finders fee back to the business for their trouble.

Supply a construction video and / or professionally written instructions that you don't need a translator and a mechanical engineer to decipher like that nice one that Matt has for the Permit kit on his website.

Then again, I could be wrong. According to the Mrs., I usually am... ]



Edited By TMSmalley on 1081267128

[stevel14]

Hi Matt,

Actually, I believe that

Hi Matt,

Actually, I believe that the problem is a combination of all of the above. Speaking as someone who has lost their job twice since late 2001, I know that the economy is a large part of the problem. If I was in a position to be able to do so, I would be the first in line to buy several of your products. Hopefully, my luck will change and someday I will be able to do so.

I know of several others who are in either the same situation, or have seen their cost of living go through the roof while watching their pay increase in only microscopic amounts. When this happens, people have to either skip spending on their hobbies, or start purchasing products that are cheaper, and as a result, of less quality.

I don't doubt in the slightest that these new products from Dumas and Robbe are affecting your business. With their ability to be able to put the actual kits in the hobby stores where they can actually bee seen, it would be impossible for Robbe, Dumas, and the others to not get attention and sales. Add in the fact that they are seen as easy, beginner's-level, all-inclusive kits, and it is a given. Most people today want to take the easy way out and get instant gratification. They are not willing to spend weeks, months, or years working on a project when they can start a different project where all they have to do is shake the box, add some glue, and it all falls together for them.

I am sure that this is exactly what is causing Lee problems as well. The building of scale models is rapidly becoming an all but extinct art as people gravitate towards the ready to run or almost ready to run products out there. The pride of craftmanship and being able to say 'I built that,' is being lost. By the way, even though I sound like one of the old-times moaning about the 'way it used to be,' I am only in my mid30's. Still, it only takes a few years in the hobby to see what is happening, no matter what your age.

On the bright side, while the ready to run market is always going to be huge, eventually many of those people are going to tire of the cookie-cutter models which look like every other one on the water, have simplistic detailing, and have only rather basic performance. They will want something more, and that is when they will turn to you, Skip, Lee and the other specialty vendors out there. Perhaps I am being overly optimistic, but I would like to think that the flood of people buying from Dumas and Robbe will be a flood of people coming to you in a few years when they want something MUCH better.

Also remember, those kits are bringing new people into the hobby. Even today, many modelers still think of subs as incredibly complex and difficult models and are afraid of them as a result. Now, some of those people who never considered a sub model are now buying and building one as a result of thes basic kits. This cannot be anything but good for the hobby in the long run.

I would like to see you continue your product line and that you add to it. I know that I have read messages from many people who are looking forward to your Ohio class kit, for example. It would be a great loss for all of us if you, Skip, Lee and the others decide to throw in the towel
and call it quits. I sincerely hope that it does not come to that.

OK, time to get off of the soapbox.........

Steve Laubmeier
Tempe, AZ.
SC #2442

[novagator]

Matt,

Have you given any thought

Matt,

Have you given any thought into making the permit into an all inclusive kit? Maybe put a package together with someone's WTC, be it your own, or Dave's or one of the others and discounted, and make it attractive to buyers?



Best Regards,

John

[novagator]

Matt,

One more thing, I have

Matt,

One more thing, I have a friend that works at a local hobby shop, and they want me to bring my Alfa down when i finish it, because they only subs they have ever seen have been the dumas kits.

Maybe I can get them to put it on display for a week or two.

[tennesseejim]

FYI -

My Dumas Bluefish

FYI -

My Dumas Bluefish kit did include a SubCommittee flyer. Also, I am planning to build a more advanced kit as my next model.

I would hate to see you guys give up.

- Jim

[dietzer]

Matt,

I think you basically have

Matt,

I think you basically have two types of customers]always[/b] be for a smaller segment of the market, and will eventually become a smaller percentage of the available product lines. The bulk of the market, and eventually the bulk of the product lines, will go to the smaller, cheaper vacuum-formed kits.

I hope and pray that you and the other private vendors can survive and eventually thrive in this transitioning market. If the likes of Dumas and Robbe force out the private vendors like you and Skip and Lee, then our hobby has taken a serious step backwards.

Carl