Scratch Built Definition

[cliffhanger67]

I think is about time we come to a common page on the word “scratch built “. Can anyone start a definition or guidelines?
Not that I am discrediting anyone but just want to make folks looking into us know we are a serious and consistent group.

[crueby]

Thats something that model groups have argued over for years, where to draw the line of everything from raw materials to using skme off the shelf parts to kit bashing. I was at a competition once where my ship model was classed as a kit since I bought a short bit of chain while everything else was from lumber I cut down to size.

[QuarterMaster]

IMNSHO.....

SCRATCH:
Plans Only
NO PREFAB components, period
But here you must ask...what about motor and electronics, battery, Westinghouse S5W reactor? Is running hardware included?

SEMISCRATCH: (A term I like,yet people ignore)
Plans Only
Mix of scratch and prefab components
Homebrew Watertight compartments
WTC part of running hardware? Is a SubDriver a kit?

KIT:
Plans & Assembly instructions
Prefab Components, maybe some homebrew details

ARTR:
Batteries not included.


What about those of you who purchased a Semi scratch kit built by Bob Martin, how do YOU label that at a show?
I've seen many a boats win awards by people who haven't built 'em but were finished by a professional modeler regardless of construction.

[chips]

Scratch building is building a model form raw materials like wood, metals, plastic, paper, thread & string, etc. If I use wheel collars and brass stock to make rudder and dive plane control arms, does that count as a scratch built part?

Some of the items that I have made myself for various models include: a few props, steering wheels, life rings, a fire extinguisher, and the above mentioned control arms. I scratch built a 1/32nd scale PT boat hull many years ago, For the MK13 torpedoes, I used Estes rocket nose cones for the stern section and plastic florists tube for the warhead; the control surfaces and props were made from styrene strips. Does the unconventional use of prefab components, as on my torpedoes, constitute a scratch built item?

[Ralph --- SSBN 598]

This subject comes up every once in a while.
It really got heated when 3D printers started getting affordable.

Scratch build, semi scratch build, partical kit, full kit . . . .
Quesitionis, are you building this for yourself or do you have plans to enter competition where these discriptions may matter to the judges.?
If you plan to enter competition on building the you will have to follow their rules.

Other wise, build like you want.
Only person you have to make happy, is you.

And there are those who will criticize how you built YOUR boat.
To me, their opinion is just that.
"Their opinion. "
I do not concern myself with what others think unless I am asking for advise to help be do better with the building or operation.
I will listen to others but I do not have to use their suggestions.
And if they get pushy, I ask to see the boats they have built as an example.

So, build any way you want and makes you happy.
Get it in the water and have the fun of running your boat.

I have scratch built all the way to a complete kit I just assembled from the instructions.
I enjoy running them all.
I have no interesting to entering any competition on building technique.

Just my personal opinion.

[eckloss]

I absolutely positively second what Ralph said.

[ccontrol]

Ralph has it right. It's about what you want out of the hobby and what you can afford to put in to the hobby in terms of time and money.

Ed has a great structure if you need definitions for a contest that requires common standards. Makes me wonder what written rules exist for the various major judged events. Like any game you want to play, you need to know the rules.

Scratch-built also has limits. For RC, you need to go to the beach, harvest some sand, use it to create a transistor, and build your own radio. Don't forget to machine and wind your own motor. Ridiculous of course but what about that LED you put on your model? Impractical to manufacture but so is a cast porthole or anchor chain to some modelers.

[salmon]

I think every hobby will have its own definitions for competition. Maybe as an organization, SC should come up with our own definition for scratch built. I so agree with we build for our own gratification and not to please some judges. That being said, in the past we used to have competitions. In my youth, I competed in a several plastic model competitions. I became frustrated at the judges and some of the ridiculous opinions. This color is not the right shade or this is not a realistic doo-dad or that particular model never had that configuration (even if you provided proof with period photos). I ended up building with what I liked and painted with what I wanted. In fact one of my F14 Tomcat took 1st place (I just mixed up my own gray for it - not worried about exact color). I did a Predator model and the creature was again painted from what I thought represented the best Predator alien from the movie (it too won an award). That being said, I do believe that some standards need to be set. Buying a plastic kit and a etched brass detail sheet does not qualify as scratch built. So, the line is what? Craig pointed out if you buy a cast porthole or anchor chain is that how far you have to go to be disqualified? Do you have to mine your own copper and pull your own wire or make your own stainless steel drive shafts?

Let me start the thought process for RC Submarines. Scratch built for us is forming or shaping the hull and major structures (sail, dive planes) from foam and fiberglass yourself. Not purchasing a premed fiberglass hull and finishing it (which should be a different category than scratch built or plastic kit).
So maybe 4 categories?
All these categories do not look at paint as an add on. It is assumed paint is not made by the person building the sub.

1. Straight out of the box (OOB) build (plastic and fiberglass {like Engel's 212a or Akula II}). Are there exceptions? like non-boxed decals are O.K. to add, but no photo etched parts or plastic not included in the box?
2. kit built, but modified (adding etched brass or modifications from a straight kit)
3. Custom built - fiberglass hull and components all purchased or made separately.
4. Scratch built - Hull, sail, planes, and rudders are made buy the builder and not purchased pre-made. Do we include Guns????

O.K. your thoughts?

[JWLaRue]

Back when we held competitions as part of the SubRegattas, we would evaluate the models on a sliding scale. We didn't even try (or want to) get into creating definitions that were going to cause conflict. Instead we would take into account the actual work that the modeler did to complete his/her model.

From my personal perspective, unless modeling competitions are going to be re-instated under the SubCommittee banner, I'm not clear why the organization needs to create a definition. (I can be convinced otherwise....)

The lack of interest in competitions is the reason why SubRegattas became FunRuns.

I would be very interested in hearing what others think on this subject as it has been a while since it was discussed.

-tnx,
Jeff

[bob the builder]

Interesting topic.

I'd almost think that there would need to be some percentages on it.

Scratchbuilt: 90% of the model built from raw materials: (IE: styrofoam master, fiberglass shell, self-done scribing, lexan tube for cylinder, machined end caps, etc. Pre-built components acceptable would include tiny fittings like bollards, cleats as well as propellers

Kit: Bought the stuff and put it all together. 90% of the components were bought off the shelf and were designed for this application.

ARTR: I bought it off someone else. Even if he scratchbuilt it, I have it now, but can't take credit.


If we get way in the weeds on definitions, all the fun it taken out of it. I'd say that 99% of the time, common sense will tell you if the guy built it, assembled it, or simply bought it.

[salmon]

Bob,
Something to think about, I like the idea of percentages.
I am not sure about combining dive system or making dive system another scratch built aspect.
Jeff,
I see the SC as setting the standards, not to cause division or arguments and not even a competition definition. Just a general rule we can apply as we describe our subs.

That being said, we have had few comments so maybe I am wanting something the SC does not.

[JWLaRue]

Like I stated, I can be convinced otherwise. If we can agree on a reason for the SC to create these definitions, then by all means let’s do so.

if you’re interested in a good example of judging/scoring rules, then perhaps this will help:

http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/2006-judging-guide-lines.pdf

-Jeff

[chips]

I wish that the Scale Ship Modelers Association of North America would post some of their Handbook on their website. Our subs qualify as scale models for their events. I found my copy of the SSMA Handbook and here is what it has about "Construction Classification."

Class A: From Primary Materials
The builder use no pre-manufactured parts except: rods and tubing; cordage and chain; nails, screws, and bolts; glass, wood, metal and plastic sheeting; fiberglass and other textiles; propellers, bearings, and stuffing boxes; gear trains; steam, electric, and internal combustion engines; electrical, electronic, and radio components; adhesives and paints.

Class A has two sub classes; which allow the use of premanufactured replicas of fittings like cleats, bitts, vents, anchors. The Class A2 requires the full size part to have no dimension larger than 4 feet. Class A3 allows the full size part to have at least one dimension larger than 4 feet.

Class B: From Pre-Manufactured Components
Hull, major superstructure components and fittings are purchased pre manufactured, whether from a commercial enterprise or a private individual. All assembly and finishing are by the builder.

Class C: Modified Kit
A kit is modified to show the vessel at some other period of time, or converted to some other use.

Class D: Kit
The ship model is assembled and finished in accordance with the instruction, and using the materials provided.

IMO, modifying the Revell 1/72 GATO into the TUNNY (SSG 287) or BARBERO (SSG 317) with the Regulus 1 missile hangar and launch track qualifies as a modified kit. Converting the Revell GATO into one of the GUPPY variants would also qualify as a modified kit.

Most of our submarine models would fall under Class B or Class D for scale judging (along with targets) at an SSMA event.

[salmon]

How is SSMA handling 3D printing?

[chips]

I don't know the answer to that question. The SSMA website does not have a discussion board. The quarterly SSMA Journal doesn't have much info on 3D printing. From looking at some of the SSMA Journal photos, I know some of the models have 3D printed parts because I recognize the model or the builder's name from other events or forums.

If a person has their own 3D printer, and designed and printed their own hull and parts, I guess that would fall under Class A. If I purchased a hull and fittings from Shapeways or someone with a printer, it would be considered a Class B.