Unauthorized use of Russian military designs by China.

[u-5075]

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 80513.aspx

Corrupt Kilo Copies Clobbered

May 13, 2008: Russia is getting more and more upset at what it sees as Chinese making unauthorized use of Russian military technology. The latest irritation is the new Chinese diesel electric sub design, the Type 39A, or Yuan class. They look just like the Russian Kilo class. In the late 1990s, the Chinese began ordering Russian Kilo class subs. Russia was selling new Kilos for about $200 million each, which is about half the price other Western nations sell similar boats for. The Kilos weigh 2,300 tons (surface displacement), have six torpedo tubes and a crew of 57. They are quiet, and can travel about 700 kilometers under water at a quiet speed of about five kilometers an hour. Kilos carry 18 torpedoes or SS-N-27 anti-ship missiles (with a range of 300 kilometers and launched underwater from the torpedo tubes.) The combination of quietness and cruise missiles makes Kilo very dangerous to American carriers. North Korea and Iran have also bought Kilos.

The Chinese have already built two Yuans, the second one an improvement on the first. These two boats have been at sea to try out the technology that was pilfered from the Russians. A third Yuan is under construction, and it also appears to be a bit different from the first two. The first Yuan appeared to be a copy of the early model Kilo (the model 877), while the second Yuan (referred to as a Type 39B) appeared to copy the late Kilos (model 636). The third Yuan may end up being a further evolution, or Type 39C.

The Type 39, or Song class, also had the teardrop shaped hull, but was based on the predecessor of the Kilo, the Romeo class. The Type 39A was thought to be just an improved Song, but on closer examination, especially by the Russians, it looked like a clone of the Kilos. The Yaun class also have AIP (Air Independent Propulsion), which allows non-nuclear boats to stay underwater for days at a time.

The Russian sub building organizations are not amused, and are warning China of legal action if Yuans are offered for export (and in direct completion with the Kilos.)

[david h]

chinese copies of russian subs.

G'day all,

Honestly, what did the Russians expect? I could see this coming years ago. It was pretty clear as soon as the Yuan appeared a couple of years ago that It was heavily influenced by the Kilo.

With the very fact that the Chinese and Russians have for the longest time not seen eye-to eye is it hardly surprising then that the Chinese would be doing this. They were determined to build SSNs with or without Soviet help in the early '70's and once again they are just as determined.

The Chinese see the Russians as a cheap way of getting reasonably good technology. Lets hope that the Russians don't sell China their best. The Kilo was bought to bolster their technology base, not as a real long term defence procurement just to build up their navy.

That's my two bob anyway,

Regards,

David Hughes

[u-5075]

Came across this article on

Came across this article on China vs. Russia.


http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/20 ... 210379189/
Analysis: Chinese subs in S. China Sea
By ANDREI CHANG
Published: May 9, 2008 at 8:26 PM

HONG KONG, May 9 (UPI) -- Over the past 20 years, China's military investment has grown faster than any other country. The bamboo curtain that formerly enveloped the country has become a copper curtain.

Furthermore, China has become more difficult to negotiate with than even the former Soviet Union. The tactic of deceiving one's opponent or competitor is deeply engrained in traditional Chinese culture, not only an aspect of communist morality. The ability to deceive one's opponent is evidence of cleverness, not something to feel guilty about, and is a traditional strategy in the Chinese art of war.

This is a basic, uncompromising difference between countries with a Christian or Buddhist culture and China's traditional culture, mixed with communist "ethics."

For example, the Chinese navy is enlarging its underground submarine facility and has started to deploy more 094 SSBNs (nuclear ballistic missile submarines), 091 SSNs (nuclear attack submarines), and KILO 636M SS (diesel powered submarines) in Sanya city on the southern island of Hainan.

Since 2002 China has constructed the largest submarine underground tunnel in Sanya. Satellite photos taken in February revealed that one of the latest 094 SSBNs had entered the new Yalong Naval Base at Sanya. It is too early to say whether it is permanently deployed there, or whether it is just a stopover.

Kanwa Defense Review Monthly has obtained photos from a special correspondent that show that not only the 094 SSBN, but also the new KILO 636M diesel submarines are located at the Sanya submarine base.

The Chinese navy has been enhancing its submarine fleet power in the South China Sea, presumably to block Taiwan and Japan in case of war, and also to secure sea routes in the Indian Ocean to protect its oil shipments from the Middle East. Of course, the submarine fleet is also a threat to South Asian countries that have territorial disputes with China.

Despite the fact that the 094 SSBN was already in Sanya, the April edition of China Defense Daily, an official publication of the People's Liberation Army, denied this fact and published fabricated photos of the submarine it claimed had been created and posted on the Internet to make it appear that the 094 SSBN was in Sanya. The China Defense Daily went to the trouble of explaining in detail how the fake Internet photos were made.

The article criticized Kanwa Defense Review for propagating the "China threat" theory by reporting "false" news about the submarines.

It is widely believed among Western military observers that the PLA has used many fabricated photos and news reports to support its psychological war against the outside world over a long period of time.

The author had the opportunity in February to discuss with Indian and U.S. naval experts in New Delhi the reasons for the appearance of the 094 SSBN in Sanya. The Indian and U.S. experts believe that the submarine was not engaged in tests at sea. Naturally, the Indian expert wondered if the 094 deployment was aimed at India. The U.S. expert speculated that the submarine may have been deployed there because the waters in the South China Sea are deep and make it more difficult to detect the 094.

The U.S. expert agreed with the author's analysis that the submarine's key strike targets would be Hawaii and the southern parts of the United States, should the 094 be deployed at Sanya. The Indian expert suggested that if the 094 was indeed deployed at Sanya, it would be easier to disperse the No. 1 Nuclear Submarine Flotilla and No. 2 Nuclear Submarine Flotilla. It would be difficult to destroy the two submarine flotillas simultaneously in the event of war.

The Indian expert also indicated that Indian observers have not noticed any PLA nuclear submarines or conventional submarines entering the Indian Ocean in recent years. The author's analysis is that a major part of the PLA Navy's attention has been placed on preparations for a "military struggle" against Taiwan.

A submarine design expert from the Russian Rubin Design Bureau said in New Delhi that his company was surprised at the PLA Navy's fast-paced construction of the 094 SSBN and "Yuan" Class diesel-powered submarine.

"It was a very fast construction pace, but the quality seems less than perfect," he said. The overall design of the 094 is coarse, and the tall SLBM cabin will inevitably increase resistance in the water and create substantial noise. Meanwhile, the number of drainage holes on the hull has been carefully calculated and the holes look closable.

The Russian expert, who has designed different models of submarines, indicated that from the images released so far, the 094 seems to have been equipped with towed array sonar. The assessment of the Russian expert is consistent with the author's earlier judgment. The March 2008 issue of Kanwa Defense Review mentioned China's hastiness in building and designing the 094, believing that it reflected the dated mindset of the Chinese submarine designers. The conclusion is that the design of the 094 SSBN may be compared to the concept of the Yankee-II SSBN built in the 1970s by the Soviet navy.

There have been disputes among experts at the Rubin Design Bureau concerning the exterior structure of the Yuan SS. Some experts believe that the design plagiarized the features of the KILO 636, therefore physically the Yuan looks like an imitation version of the KILO. This assessment is understandable.

Other experts from the Rubin Design Bureau have pointed out that the design of the Yuan's hull plagiarized the KILO design, and the design of the tail rudder borrowed the concept of the Amur Class diesel submarine.

China's plagiarism in the design of the Yuan has given rise to heated disputes within the Russian military industry. With its full economic recovery in recent years, Russia is leaning closer to Western practices in many aspects and Russian society has begun to pay greater attention to the importance of intellectual property rights. This overall trend has started to have some impact on the Russian military industry.

The case of the J-11B fighter, whose design is largely copied from Russia, also resulted in heated disputes over China's plagiarism of Russian weapon systems. Western military observers in New Delhi pointed out that Russia had exported to China intact KILO 636 submarines in a deal that did not involve any technology transfer. Although the case of the Yuan SS is different from that of the J-11B, it may very likely have some impact on the issue of technological restrictions concerning Russia's arms exports to China.

One thing certain is that Russia and China have not initiated new rounds of negotiations on the purchase of more KILO or new generation Amur submarines. This means China has no further need for KILOs, unless the Yuan's performance is considered substandard by the PLA navy. Currently, two Yuan-class submarines have been launched and are undertaking sea tests.