Diesel sub wonder weapons

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  • u-5075
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2003
    • 1134

    #1

    Diesel sub wonder weapons

    Intelligence and Terrorism Features
    Defense Focus: Diesel sub wonder weapons


    By Martin Sieff Aug 31, 2007, 16:37 GMT

    WASHINGTON, DC, United States (UPI) -- The diesel submarine may be the leading 'Cinderella weapon' of the 21st century. It gets no respect in the United States or Russia. But China, India, France, Germany and Israel are all betting on it big time.

    The diesel submarine is certainly not a sexy new technology like anti-ballistic missiles, global positioning satellites or lasers. It has been around as long as the submarine itself (British Adm. Lord John 'Jackie' Fisher`s bizarre experiment in giant steam-powered submarines, the notorious 'K' boats of World War I, never got very far).

    Diesel submarine technology was perfected more than 60 years ago in the great ocean-worthy U.S. Navy fleet of subs in World War II and in the German Type XXII and XXIII U-boats that became operational towards the end of the war.

    However, the development of nuclear submarines, first by the U.S. Navy in the 1950s and then by the Soviet Union, appeared to make the diesel sub as obsolete as the bow and arrow became after the mass production of firearms. Adm. Hyman Rickover, the feisty father of America`s nuclear navy, hated them like poison. So did his successor admirals.

    Thanks to their procurement policies, there is not a single shipyard left in the entire United States that makes them anymore. But in other major nations, the old diesel sub is making a remarkable comeback.

    Israel has already deployed three German-built Dolphin diesel submarines to carry nuclear-armed cruise missiles to provide it with a survivable second-strike capability to deter Iran or other nations from the temptation of carrying out a pre-emptive first strike with nuclear weapons, and it has ordered at least two more -- both also from Germany.

    France is doing good business building its Scorpion submarines for export too, and India is planning to deploy Scorpions with cruise missiles as a deterrent against Pakistan similar to the Israeli concept.

    But the biggest enthusiast for diesel subs is China, which is building its own: In 2006 it built 14 of them to one U.S. -- nuclear-powered -- new submarine.

    China is building a mixed, or balanced, submarine fleet. It has also invested in bigger nuclear-powered strategic submarines to carry a survivable second-strike ballistic missile deterrent primarily aimed at the United States. But it is pouring major resources into its conventional submarine fleet as well. Why?

    Diesel subs certainly do not have the limitless range and endurance for long-term operational deployment that nuclear subs do. But in conventional war, they have a lot of advantages as well.

    They can operate far more easily in littoral or offshore, shallow waters, and being much smaller than nuclear submarines gives them a potentially huge operational advantage in key enclosed potential combat regions like the eastern Mediterranean Sea, the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf.

    Also, China`s procurement policies and its overwhelming concentration of force in its southeast coastal region leaves no doubt that Chinese operational planners see their most likely conventional enemy as being the U.S. Navy and Air Force in any eventual conflict over the status of Taiwan.

    In this context, having a very large conventional diesel submarine fleet makes a lot of sense. Conventional diesel subs can pose a formidable threat to nuclear aircraft carriers operating within operational range of their home ports, as the Chinese sub fleet in the western Pacific and the Taiwan Strait would be doing in such a conflict.

    U.S. anti-submarine warfare, or ASW, capabilities are superb, the best in the world. But they were overwhelmingly developed to locate and destroy bigger Soviet or Russian strategic and attack subs that were nuclear powered. A lot of smaller, cheaper diesel subs operating as underwater wolf packs would stand a much better chance of overwhelming the ASW defenses of U.S. carrier battle groups than throwing just two or three nuclear attack subs against them at a time would.

    For Israel and India, the calculus is a different one: Israel simply cannot afford to buy nuclear subs, and they would be too big and therefore easy to detect in the relatively shallow Mediterranean anyway.

    Nor does it need big nuclear-powered platforms like the U.S. Ohio class strategic subs or the old Soviet-era Typhoons, or even the somewhat smaller new nuclear powered Russian Borei class to carry its second-strike weapons.

    Israel can`t afford and does not need long-range submarine-launched ICBMs anyway. Iran, Syria and its other potential enemies would all be within range of much smaller intermediate-range cruise missiles that could be launched from a conventional sub. So the Jewish state has sensibly invested in German U-boats as its main line of defense. One wonders what Grand Adm. Karl Doenitz would have thought about it all.

    In 1982 the British nuclear submarine HMS Conqueror proved the conventional operational potency of the nuclear attack submarine by sinking the Argentine heavy cruiser General Belgrano during the Falklands, or Malvinas, War. Future wars, however, may see that dynamic reversed with enormous nuclear surface ships hunted by fleets of a weapon employed in both world wars that was supposed to have been superseded half a century ago: the non-nuclear diesel submarine.
  • gerwalk
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 525

    #2
    The last paragraph about the

    The last paragraph about the sinking of the Belgrano is accurate but if something about that 25 years old conflict can be related to what is said in the article is the war patrol of a single small diesel sub called ARA San Luis.

    It was the actions of that Klasse 209/1200 sub and her crew that actually demonstrated the usefulness of a SSK in modern warfare even if they couldn't sink a single ship due to failures of their weapons systems. ARA San Luis opperated under the Royal Navy Task Force, shoot at least three torps, resisted a fierce ASW attack for hours, and returned home after 39 days.

    The opperations were restricted to the continental shelf around the Malvinas/Falkland islands thus making almost impossible to the "supposedly" main NATO ASW force -excluding the US Navy- to detect her.

    White papers of that time -mid eighties- pointed out that ARA San Luis war patrol demonstrated the threat possed by small SSKs operating in continental shelf waters in a time that SSKs were not considered as a challenge (of course the soviet SSN were a big concern).

    ARA San Luis actions can be considered the spark to the proliferation of diesel subs around the world.

    Comment

    • anonymous

      #3
      Hi Pablo,

      That's a very interesting

      Hi Pablo,

      That's a very interesting point.

      I've just been reading/reviewing the recent book "Sink the Belgrano" which is an excellent acccount of HMS Conqueror but only makes one mention of Argentina's (Two at the time?) modern SSK's and certainly makes no mention of any action or involvement by them in the conflict.

      Do have any more information or can you provide any references?

      BTW another curious omiision in the "Sink the Belgrano" is how Argentina's one aircraft carrier was never located by the British Task Force. It seems hard to believe.

      Davy

      Comment

      • anonymous

        #4
        Hi Pablo,

        Sorry to answer my

        Hi Pablo,

        Sorry to answer my own question ,rather, but I found a lively account of the San Luis action in Wikipedia!

        It does seem to be yet another occasion when faulty torpedoes made submarines completely ineffective (Compare with US and German problems in WW2)

        Curiously (and sensibly) HMS Conqueror's crew had a choice of wire guided or 1937 vintage torpedoes. They chose the latter because they knew they actually worked.

        So much for advanced weaponry!

        Davy

        Comment

        • gerwalk
          Junior Member
          • Dec 2004
          • 525

          #5
          Davy,
          The argentine submarines operations are

          Davy,
          The argentine submarines operations are not very well documented in english, I'm afraid. That book (Sink the Belgrano) is very interesting: I have to get it! I had the opportunity to talk with Capt. Bonzo (Commander of ARA Belgrano) He is a very interesting guy. His book "1093 tripulantes" is excellent and I highly reccomend it. It is in spanish but an on-line version -that can be translated using on-line translators- can be found here: http://www.elbelgranovive.com.ar/

          I have the honor to be a friend of ARA San Luis commander during the war (Fernando María Azcueta) and I've spent several afternoons talking with him about his experience. Last may I was invited to a ceremony on the 25th aniversary of their fire baptism and had the privilege to meet the crew of both ARA San Luis and ARA Santa Fe (a Guppy class lost in South Georgias) so I heard a lot of very interesting stories.

          The story of the three submarines (two Type 209 and one Guppy) is a very interesting albeit frustrating one. At the time the war started the only sub that was almost ready was San Luis. I say almost since it has several problems]http://www.ipneditores.com.ar/product_i ... 5866f3e091[/url]

          I'm planning to write some articles for the SCR with more information on this topic if there is interest.

          Comment

          • anonymous

            #6
            Hi Pablo,

            Yes, I would recommend

            Hi Pablo,

            Yes, I would recommend the book "Sink the Belgrano". It does, of course, give the only account of an SSN in action.

            I would not call it a balanced account though - 25 years is too short a time, perhaps! It makes only one mention of the ARA San Luis and Salta.

            Captain Hector Bonzo is extensively interviewed in the book. and you cannot help but get the feeling of intense vulnerability that any surface ship commander must feel when faced by submarines.

            The ARA Santa Fe is given good coverage in the book and again you get the feeling of the vulnerability of surface ships this time by RN crew facing a diesel submarine.

            As you say, the ARA Santa Fe seems to have been used inapropriately- since she was picked up by RN radar ( a helicopter carried improvisation apparently!) on the surface.

            I look forward to your articles and if I can help with any British sources do email me etc.


            David

            Comment

            • gerwalk
              Junior Member
              • Dec 2004
              • 525

              #7
              the other english book I

              the other english book I reccommend about this is Jim Ring's We come unseen. There you will find an interesting story about the use of the old torps instead of Tigerfish (seems like Dreadnough experiences in the South Atlantic a few years before had an impact on that weird selection)

              As for the Santa Fe caught on the surface: that was not a fault of her commander or crew (it was of course a fault at the planning stage: using a sub as replenishment ship). They passed by the RN screen and arrived to the island unnoticed by night using the surf noise -a risky navigation too close to the rocky shore- to mask their own. The marines -bichos verdes or green bugs as they called them- took the whole night to unload all their weapons and supplies. Too late for Capt. Bicain plans. The sub had to leave the bay without the coverage of the night and while it was still in shallow waters it was picked up by radar. They try to reach deeper waters but then the attack started. The attack was a fierce one: two missiles actually traspassed her plastic sail. It was a miracle that they were able to reach port again! Last may I talked for a while with Petty Officer Felman who was on top of the sail firing round after round against the helos. After one of the missiles hit the sail Bicain thought the guys on the sail were goners. Felman said smiling with a bit of black humour: he closed the hatch and planned to leave us up their!

              One thing Bicain said related to your comment on the vulnerability of surface ships: he had orders to not fire against RN ships but only return fire (something stupid from a submariner point of view). I heard him saying: I had no doubt that if I detected or saw a warship heading toward us I would fire my torps against it!

              Thanks for your offering!!!

              Comment

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