Propel vessel pressure - and the Clippard EV-12 solenoid

[bob the builder]

I know that this was covered on the old message boards, but it appears that they are not available anymore for research (a crying shame).

Can anyone tell me what pressure Propel is at when stored on-board the WTC and ready for use? More importantly... will the Clippard ET-2-12 solenoid valve handle the pressure? The Clippard site rates it at 0-105psi.

I'm looking to modify a D&E WTCMOD2 for use in my Nautilus, and I'm hoping to set it up with the Clippard Valve, and Ship's N Things vent valve.

I don't like the 1/8" orifice for venting that comes stock with the WTC. Wouldn't that thing take forever to vent? My vent valve has a 3/8" orifice, which should make for far faster venting times.

Any help would be appreciated.

[bob the builder]

I just got an e-mail

I just got an e-mail message from Dave Merriman III in regards to my posting.

"Caught the above on the board.

DON'T use propel with Clippard valves -- their seats will turn to goo after exposure to the methane/butane hydrocarbons unique to 'Propel.' Use air or CO2 with the clippard valves.

Propel is about 60 psi at room temperature.

Post this to the board so no one gets the idea it's OK to use clippard valves with hydrocarbon fluids.


David,"


Thanks a lot, Dave, for saving me from a big mistake!!!



Edited By Bob the Builder on 1055776089

[tmsmalley]

A couple thigs to point

A couple thigs to point out to lurkers that Bob probably already knows - CO2 will be at a MUCH higher pressure so you'd need a pressure reducing regulator and I don't think you can use the on-board copper bottle that comes with the D&E tube for CO2. You can get CO2 regulators, tanks etc from Mike's SubWorks (see vendors' page) if you do decide to go that way. There are some advantages if you are CAREFUL.

As far as using air - you won't get many blows from just plain compressed air in the Merriman gas tank , that's why we use liquid/gas in our subs.

To avoid the Propel toxic goo problem I have switched from Propel to some stuff Mike Dory turned me onto called "Super Duster refills" From Circuit Specialties . It doesn't use butane and the other toxic stuff that rots rubber that Propel does - AND it's cheaper. You can buy 10 oz. single cans for $5.50 and a case of ten for $5.15. That is about one half the price of Propel. AND I have used it in my Hunley with homemade WTC using Clippard Valves and it doesn't seem to hurt them at all. Be sure to get the Super Duster "refills", as they have the proper Schraeder fitting that works with SubTech adapters.

I have three D&E WTCs - 3.5, 3.5 mod 2 and a 3.0 and never had a problem with the rate of ballast tank flooding. It is fast enough so my Alfa is completely under in about 5 - 7 seconds - probably faster than scale. If yours is slower than that, the vent valve can be tweaked to open a little wider.

I suggest building your D&E WTC "as from the factory" first and see if you are happy with the tank flooding rate. I'll wager you will be!
Circuit Specialties Website

[bob the builder]

Tim,


How can you flood a

Tim,


How can you flood a 3.5" diameter by 15" long cylinder (approx 144 cubic inches) in 7seconds through a 1/8" diameter hole? Additionally, it looks like the plunger only pulls back less than 1/16 from the lip...?

Maybe I'm wrong, but my common sense says that it doesn't sound right. When I hold a 2L pop bottle underwater, it takes about 10 seconds to fill (and that's through a 3/4" opening!).

Am I missing something?

[JWLaRue]

Hi Bob,

The ballast tank does

Hi Bob,

The ballast tank does fill/vent quite fast....from the point of view of scale effect, it's actually too fast!

Don't forget that the ballast tank has a pretty big opening at the bottom, so there's no 'competition' between air and water both trying to go though the same (small) hole.

With my WTC-3.5, I have actually replaced the stock Propel holding tank with one that has a much smaller vent orifice to slow down the venting process.

-Jeff

[raalst]

Does propel contain Butane/propane ?

Does propel contain Butane/propane ? would that
make propel a fancy name for lighter fluid ?
I thought propel was not flammable. is that correct ?

Save my eyebrows, please

Regards,
Ronald van Aalst

Ps. I have no direct experience, but venting pressurized
gas faster (larger orifice) means that your vent is more
likely to freeze up. I have read mails that indicated people having problems with frozen vents.



Edited By raalst on 1055840863

[tmsmalley]

Bob - if you cut

Bob - if you cut a big hole in the bottom of the soda bottle (a more apt comparison to a WTC ) it would fill in a couple of seconds. As Jeff points out, just pushing a regular 2 liter bottle underwater with no hole in the bottom forces the water rushing in to compete with the air rushing out the top, greatly slowing the flooding.

On the other hand, the vent valve on a WTC serves to let air out the top of the cylinder while on the third hand the water rushes in the holes in the bottom. Trust us, it works well!


REGARDING BUTANE IN BADGER PROPEL~
The Badger Propel MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet)click to go to the Propel Data Sheet on line lists Propel as having 800 PPM (parts Per Million) of Butane and describes Badger Propel as "Extremely Flammable as listed under 16 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations)" Do not store above 54C-130F. (130 F isn't too hard to reach inside a black hull on a sunny warm day.)
Keep away from heat, direct sunlight, open flames or sparks. Dropping of containers may cause bursting.

[b]Signs and Symptoms of Exposure]
Overexposure by inhalation may cause nausea, headache, or temporary nervous system depression with anesthetic effects such as dizziness, confusion, and loss of consciousness. Eye or skin contact with liquid may cause freezing or frostbite.

[b]Medical Conditions Generally Aggravated by Exposure]
Individuals pre-existing diseases of the central nervous system or cardiovascular system may have increased susceptibility to the toxicity of excessive vapors.

Just for comparison, take a look at the Super Duster safety sheet Super Duster Safety Data Sheet on-line
I am not a chemist but to me, it looks like a more sub-friendly product. A flammability rating of "0", etc...

[b]LAWYER ANTI-FEEDING FRENZY WARNING]



Edited By TMSmalley on 1055857655

[JWLaRue]

>>>> Ps. I have no

>>>> Ps. I have no direct experience, but venting pressurized
gas faster (larger orifice) means that your vent is more
likely to freeze up. I have read mails that indicated people having problems with frozen vents.

Freezing of the Propel vent orifice can definitely be a problem, mostly experienced with boats having large ballast tanks. The longer the venting period, the more likely it is that ice will build up.

-Jeff



Edited By JWLaRue on 1055863710

[tmsmalley]

I have noticed that in

I have noticed that in my scuba regulator - it tends to freeze up if I manually release a large blast of air in cold conditions.

However - it looks like Bob was going to increase the size of the ballast tank vent hole rather than the valve that vents the Propel from the storage tank.

I suspect you could have that a foot in diameter and it wouldn't freeze up.

[craigf]

Thread resurrection!

I'm confused re the

Thread resurrection!

I'm confused re the Clippard valve and the Propel. The PBU from SubTech uses a Clippard valve, and by its name, is supposed to use Propel. How quickly does the Propel deteriorate the valve? They're not that cheap that I want to ruin one just during testing. I'm surprised that a *backup* system is designed that naturally deteriorates when used]http://www.subcommittee.com/forum/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Propel is actually quite cheap and easy to get here, from Wal-Mart. I use Super Duster and similar and have lots of it for other stuff, but *not* the refills, so wrong valves for the PBU, and this stuff is a pain to get because they want to ship it as hazardous material because it's pressurized and that costs quite a lot extra. Refills they only sell by the case, locally.]

Thanks for your patience...I have a *lot* of questions. I get the impression many would be answered by the old board archives.

[yellowdog]

When looking for propel replacements,

When looking for propel replacements, look at the chemical name. 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane is what you are looking for
Later, Dan

[craigf]

I see ElectroSonic sells the

I see ElectroSonic sells the Chemtronics stuff by the single refill can now, used to have to get a whole case of them.

I'm trying to figure out how big the propellant tank needs to be for the Albacore, instructions don't say. The ballast tank has a volume of ~250ml. Do you know how to figure it out? I was told to use 3/4" copper tube, but not how long a piece. Thanks.