High Pressure Ballast System... - My destgn; Am I all wet?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • don prince
    SubCommittee Member
    • Feb 2003
    • 201

    #1

    High Pressure Ballast System... - My destgn; Am I all wet?

    Hello fellow members,

    I have completed the hull of my OTW 1/32 U-Boat, and I have been working on a design for the WTC and ballast system. My hull is designed such that I can place a 3.5 OD x 36 inch WTC into the hull just by removing the tower section (8 brass machined screws). However, I would like to limit the WTC length to as close to 32 inches as possible.

    I have designed a dive system that uses an SES-II (to receive the dive/blow commands) and my own TTL logic circuit to activate two Solid State relays with 2 open contacts each. The relays will determine the water pump motor flow direction, as well as pulling a valve solenoid. This is fairly simple stuff.

    I figured the ballast tank size to be 20 inches long, 19 inches internal free flood space. The pump motor is similar to the one used by OTW in there WTC which can pump up to 2.1 bars (30.5 PSI). If my math is correct, then my ballast tank has an internal capacity of 155.8 cubic inches (a little less because of 3 internal baffles). At 60 percent capacity, the intermal pressure should be 2.5 PSI, and the ballast weight of 2.46 pounds. At 70 percent capacity, the internal pressure should be 3.3 PSI, and the ballast weight of 4 pounds.

    I plan on using a pressure switch to kill the pump circiut when the preset capacity is reached. In addition, when the tank is being blown, there is a water sensor that will stop the blow when there is no water at the exit drain. With this design, I can use a three position switch to control the TTL ballast system (dive - open - blow) at the transmitter. The pressure switch and the water sensor provides feedback to the TTL dive system.

    Now, on to my inexperience....

    Do I have enough remaining space for everything else (Receiver, SES-II, APC-4, ADC-1, 3 servos, Voltage circuit, pump motor, solenoid valve, Dive circuit & 2 SS relays). I plan on placing the dual brushless drive motors and power amp at the drive shaft level in separate enclosures.

    I would appreciate any help and comments... Like I said, I may be all wet, but I think it's better to ask advice, then to sell the farm, and then be up the creek without a paddle. I did that once and purchased a Dual Engel Piston dive system and discovered that it won't fit! I was very lucky and sold them and broke even (never again).

    Regards,
    Don_




    Edited By Don Prince on 1132525491
    A man's gotta know his limitations...
    Harry Callahan, SFPD
  • crazy ivan
    SubCommittee Member
    • Feb 2003
    • 659

    #2
    Don,

    I think your internal pressure

    Don,

    I think your internal pressure calculations are way low, unless you meant to say 2.5 bar and 3.3 bar, in which case your numbers would be correct. Of course, these figures reflect the absolute pressure in the tank, meaning that when the tank is empty of water, there is already about 1 bar in the tank (actually 1 bar = .9869 atmospheres, but we should be close enough for discussion purposes). These means you need to subtract 1 bar from your final number to see what a guage would read if you measure the tank pressure. Follow?

    I've built control logic similar to what you describe, but rather than using TTL and solid state relays I prefer CMOS and some N-channel power MOSFETs. It uses somewhat less current that way. And using a pair of chips and FETs I can plug directly into my receiver, bypassing the need for the SES II entirely.
    sigpic
    "There are the assassins, the dealers in death. I am the Avenger!" - Captain Nemo

    -George Protchenko

    Comment

    • don prince
      SubCommittee Member
      • Feb 2003
      • 201

      #3
      Hi Crazy Ivan,

      I knew I

      [color=#000000]Hi Crazy Ivan,

      I knew I could depend on somebody with a wealth of knowledge who could help me out here. I think I understand what you are stating about the internal pressure of a sealed ballast tank. I forgot to consider atmospheric pressure in my calculations (Dummy me!).

      For example]
      A man's gotta know his limitations...
      Harry Callahan, SFPD

      Comment

      • crazy ivan
        SubCommittee Member
        • Feb 2003
        • 659

        #4
        Don,
        your first calculation is

        Don,
        your first calculation is correct. However, at 5 cu-in, the guage would read just over 43 psi!

        If we assume Temperature to be a constant, then]Ideal Gas Law[/url]

        Using this formula, if you go from 20 cu-in to 5 cu-in, you have reduced your volume by a factor of four. So the absolute pressure will increase by a factor of four to 4 bar. This is a guage pressure of 3 bar, or 43.5 PSI, which exceeds the capacity of your pump. The most your 30.5 PSI pump will get you is 67.5% full at 6.5 cu-in of air in our example. Actually, that will be 67.5% full for any size tank you start out with. You need to consider this against all the material above the waterline when surfaced. If this doesn't give you enough ballast water, then you need to increase the overall volume of the tank from 155.8 cu-in.

        I'm not clear about your concern for pressure relief. Is the tank an integral part of the overall WTC? If so, then much depends on the construction method of the walls that divide the tank from the rest of the WTC. 30 PSI can generate a lot of force on a wall of some 3+ inches in diameter, and could conceivably dislodge or rupture it to flood your electronics space. If you do use a relief valve, be sure it releases water, not air, or you will end up with a vacuum in the tank when it is pumped dry.
        sigpic
        "There are the assassins, the dealers in death. I am the Avenger!" - Captain Nemo

        -George Protchenko

        Comment

        • don prince
          SubCommittee Member
          • Feb 2003
          • 201

          #5
          Hi George,

          Thanks for the Info...

          Hi George,

          Thanks for the Info... If I understand the concept, them...

          PV = PV

          15 x 20, then ? x 10 = 30 -15(ATM Pressure) = 15 PSI 1/2 full
          =300 =300

          15 x 20, then ? x 5 = 60 - 15(ATM Pressure) = 45 PSI 3/4 full
          =300 =300

          Darn... There's more pressure than I want to handle in a ballast system. This looks like a disaster waiting to happen. What type of a tank design have you used? I don't want to go with a gas system because it requires a refill cycle...

          Regards,
          Don_




          Edited By Don Prince on 1132684840
          A man's gotta know his limitations...
          Harry Callahan, SFPD

          Comment

          • crazy ivan
            SubCommittee Member
            • Feb 2003
            • 659

            #6
            No problem, Don. I enjoy

            No problem, Don. I enjoy a little mental exercise now and then... keeps me somewhat sane.



            You've got the concept down now.




            Edited By Crazy Ivan on 1132687934
            sigpic
            "There are the assassins, the dealers in death. I am the Avenger!" - Captain Nemo

            -George Protchenko

            Comment

            • crazy ivan
              SubCommittee Member
              • Feb 2003
              • 659

              #7
              WOOPS!! Looks like we both

              WOOPS!! Looks like we both posted at the same time.
              sigpic
              "There are the assassins, the dealers in death. I am the Avenger!" - Captain Nemo

              -George Protchenko

              Comment

              • crazy ivan
                SubCommittee Member
                • Feb 2003
                • 659

                #8
                To answer your question, what

                To answer your question, what I used in my Fulton Nautilus was a closed pump system like the one you describe, but my ballast tank is external to the WTC. It is made of PVC pipe and can stand a bit of pressure. My pump, however, is only an automotive window washer pump developing a mere 7 PSI at 7.2 volts. This, of course makes for a larger tank than the higher pressure version, but it works reliably. I use a homemade checkvalve to prevent backflow. A cheap PVC electric valve from McMaster Carr releases the water. My checkvalve is a little leaky, so if all systems fail, the water will eventually empty out and the boat will surface.

                I am going in a different direction for all future boats. I have a 3 x 19 inch universal WTC that houses all my electronics, into which I have installed a small air pump and clippard valve, ala RCABS. However, I have come up with a different way to apply it which I call Reverse RCABS. In this design, I do not use the air in the WTC. I still use a bladder, which can be installed either in the free-flood section of the hull, or enclosed in a free flooding section of the WTC. It also incorporates an external closed pressure tank.

                The at-rest condition of the system is that the bladder is fully inflated under very little pressure, the pressure tank is empty, and the boat is surfaced. To dive, the pump runs and the air is pumped out of the bladder and into the pressure tank. Since the pump will develop close to 1 atmosphere of pressure, the tank and the bladder are designed to be of equal volume. With the bladder empty, the tank is therfore under close to 15 PSI (gauge). To surface, the clippard valve by-passes the pump and the bladder re-inflates.

                I installed a prototype of this system in my Dumas Akula and ran it at SubRegatta 05. It worked beautifully. Due to space constraints, I had to mold my own pressure tank out of fiberglass, but I am going to try a copper or stainless spherical float from McMaster or some such supplier next. I am custom fabricating my own bladders, so the system should prove quite adaptable to various hulls.

                This, by the way, is the same exact system Dave Welch has under test in his new WTC, which he is considering marketing.




                Edited By Crazy Ivan on 1132688030
                sigpic
                "There are the assassins, the dealers in death. I am the Avenger!" - Captain Nemo

                -George Protchenko

                Comment

                • Guest

                  #9
                  Would the old copper toilet

                  Would the old copper toilet tank floats be able to be adapted to suit your use as storage tanks, or would they not stand up to internal pressure?

                  Comment

                  • crazy ivan
                    SubCommittee Member
                    • Feb 2003
                    • 659

                    #10
                    Hello Art,

                    I do believe those

                    Hello Art,

                    I do believe those old copper floats would hold up to the pressure, provided they are not too corroded by years of service. I haven't seen one in a long time, and you don't find them on the store shelves anymore.

                    In my particular case, I need a certain diameter (3.25 to 3.5 inches) and it needs to be close to spherical due to space constraints. In general though, I think it would be viable.
                    sigpic
                    "There are the assassins, the dealers in death. I am the Avenger!" - Captain Nemo

                    -George Protchenko

                    Comment

                    • Guest

                      #11
                      Ivan,
                      Ace Hardware might still have

                      Ivan,
                      Ace Hardware might still have them, if the size is right for you. copper float 12 pack

                      Comment

                      • crazy ivan
                        SubCommittee Member
                        • Feb 2003
                        • 659

                        #12
                        Well what-da-ya-know, they're still around!

                        Well what-da-ya-know, they're still around! At 4" x 5" they are a bit big for my current application, but I'll keep them in mind for future projects. Thanks for the link, Art.
                        sigpic
                        "There are the assassins, the dealers in death. I am the Avenger!" - Captain Nemo

                        -George Protchenko

                        Comment

                        Working...