Water Cooling Subs

[Guest]

Here is a write up about the benifits and diagrams of water cooling a Sub ,it can be done with just about every sub desighne out there and In my opinion is important to increase the run time and longevity of a motor.

Its done on my subs with regular can type motors that are quite efecient voltage to speed and torqe ratios or on cordless drill and trany installations that that are used in large Nuke subs 5ft or larger,where more power is required to move a larger cross section of mass threw the water at a high scale operational speed like the full size subs must do.

The Alfa was the fastest sub in the world and had the power plant to take advantage of the hull desighne to in affect "out run" Nato torpedoes and that was a big shock to Nato that a sub could not be hunted down with available weapons,emergency programs where developed to make faster torpedoes and submarines to deliver them and to go as fast or at least as fast as the Alfa.

Well thats where cooling comes in ,heat exchangers and special heat tranferring exotic liquids where experimented on both sides of which the Russians came up with a Liquid Bithmus metal system that had to be maintained at a set temp or it would solidify,ruining the reactor,it happened and they learnt there lesson but they did get a super powerfull reactor system.

In Rc Subs most of the Casings are made from plactics that do not efectivly conduct or transfer heat or outside cold inward.
In effect the motor and ESC is issolted thermaly from the water and heat will build up in a sealed container where no fresh air is circulating,even if the motors are perfectly matched to the prop and sub there will be heat generated,maybe not in some casses to cause a problem but its there and not being dealt with.

On my larger subs the high power out put of a drill motor trany set up matched to the high pitch prop as on the Alfa or on any other large sub made it a good idea to water cool it.

It's easy to build, simple and pays off in many ways,a pump driven by the motor circulates a small amount of water and antifreez of abuot 3 table spoons and 1cc of antifreez,the antyfreez lubes and elliminates corotion of the alluminum tube which is minor and is maid to eliminate heat by transfer.

Just two passthrughs are needed for the 3/16ths dia miter aircraft grade coil tubes ,about .30 cent per foot,to enter the casing and are one piece , no flexable materials in the casing wall like silicone tubbing,only on the "inside" is it used to connect the 2 coils together. Marine Goop is used to seal them.

This system is called the "Sealed cooling Ststem" and thats what makes it so neat and eligant ,there is no way water is going to get into the casing if a tube is blown off.Pressure is nell becase there is no absolute abstruction or restricktion nor can one inter the coils.And the pump is only pumping when the drive is in use .And the amount spilled well no biggie and has not happened yet.

Pumps are made with oilite bushings and a special lipped shaft seal on a stainless shaft directly off the motor or driven off the main shaft,I leave pump making to the experts.

Vertauly no maintenace just change the fluid once a year and check hoses and that the pump is not leaking,so far I haven't had to change a pump or motor for that manner in any of my subs that have this system for many years now.

One might say why, its not necessary and complex, it might seem that way but ,your car has it ships have it,fullscale subs,pleasure boats Nuclear Power plants food processing even Astronaught space suits .any machine or process that has to remove heat even if its just a little will have great benifits.

I like the saying "a happy motor is a cool one" and its seen on RC scale and race boats scale or not or in RTR kits by major manufacturers that know the benifits,its just a better way to keep a" cool motor running cooler",no unmatched hot windding motors that where miss matched to there drives.

I can prove it in real time Telemetry now with the on board Eagle Tree System now being deployed on my subs,see" Telemetry For your Sub" for more details on this very revolutionary tool to mnitor the most important parts of your sub,just like the engineers do with alot more bucks.

I did prove it to my self when I first installed the Telemitry and was amazed at the difference in temperatures from ambient to normal cruise to full sustained speed or flank scale speed.
The diferrence was about 7 degrees and rissing fast if I did not stop the test and reconnect the cooling system to drop back to 99 degrees f.One might think wow he runs hot motors so thats why he uses watercooling ,not true I used to not run watercooling and was always amazed at the warm inner air of the casing when I opened the casing after a long run,I had to find some way to eliminate the heat build up.

Even on a very "fuel" efecient WWII sub hull like a Type XXI or Type VII the heat will still build up ,not to a level that will damage the motors but it is still there bringing down the efecincy of the motors that are also running side by side and drawing heat from each other with no way to diassapate it except into the surrounding air of the casing.

Now if one was to have say a stainless steel casing and a motor mounted drectly to that frame inner suport that is in contact wth the casing then a clear path of dissapation is achieved to the water and the heat is extracted,simple thermal dynamics applied to a RC Sub.
No pumps exetra and very simple desighne,I did that on my Alfa and water cooled it any way.

Please don't think that this is the best or only way to do it and that's it ,no there are other ways also and I would love to see them work but this is my way ,its cheap relliable and very cool method of an extra "piece of mind and assuarance "that like full size Marine vessles have been enjoying for many years now why can't we ?.
Please don't take my advice as a sales pitch.

Dave Amur Sub Yard

[skip asay]

On the surface of it

On the surface of it (no pun intended), this sounds like a good idea. But when you get right down to it, it's so totally unnecessary. If you've done your homework and chosen the right motor and drive reduction, there's no extra heat that needs to be taken away. It also unnecessarily complicates the building process. Why bother?

I'm quite sure that the need was originally perceived as a result of too much heat being generated, but what caused that heat? It's quite simple, really. Too much load on the motor. Trying to swing a big prop without having a full understanding of just what it takes. I've seen way too many guys who think that just putting a bigger motor in a boat will offset the fact that the prop is big. Not so! The larger the prop diameter is, the slower it will turn for a given amount of thrust. But few people realize that the relationship between power and prop speed is not linear. To double the speed of a prop requires something on the order of 4 or 5 times more power. Another way to look at that is; if I double the size of the prop I'll need to increase my reduction ratio by 4 or 5:1. I've seen a number of boats actually increase their speed by increasing the drive ratio. Look at it this way; torque is multiplied by the reduction ratio. A ratio of 5:1 is multiplying the torque FIVE TIMES! It also allows the motor to run at a higher speed which lowers the load substantially.

If you insist on water cooling your motor, you'd be wiser using copper tubing rather than aluminum since heat conductance is greater for copper. And there should be some sort of restriction in the water circuit to slow the water's speed. Water traveling too quickly doesn't have enough time to absorb heat or to dissipate it.

For my money, it's a waste of time and effort. Cure the problem not the symptom.

Skip Asay

[hakkikt]

So you are basically not

So you are basically not cooling the motor directly but rather the end-plates of the WTC, which will in turn cool the air inside the WTC, which will in turn cool the motor?

[Guest]

I am sorry Skip but

I am sorry Skip but you did not mention nor emphasis one of the most important properties of a marine prop and that is where water cooling plays a role and that is "PITCH" and the" Amount of it in relation to the Diameter".

More pitch ,more turgue required,the drive works harder and generates more heat.

Large diameter moderate to high pitched props will use a lot of power compared to the same size diameter prop with a small amount of pitch.True or not true?

Put no pitch on the same prop and there is virtually no torque required except to turn the shaft and the prop is now a disk and no thrust is produced.

There are grafts and charts to demonstrate those facts by Marine Engineers and it is Directly related to our hobby weather we like it or not.

Many vessels have even variable pitch props so that the torque to motor and fuel cusumption and heat dissipation can be dealt with,kind of like having a second gear box or more gears like trucks have to get up hills with heavy loads,Tugs and Ocean going Tugs have this capability and some cargo ships and some military vessels.

I bet they all have water cooling,but that's just my observation of what Marine Engineers do.

"Not so! The larger the prop diameter is, the slower it will turn for a given amount of thrust. But few people realize that the relationship between power and prop speed is not linear. To double the speed of a prop requires something on the order of 4 or 5 times more power.End Quote.

Yes depending on the pitch.

No mention of pitch nor the amount of it.

I do my home work and NOT just in the realm of RC Subs but as the marine engineers have , gee discovered over a long time of mathematical and practice real word research,believe me if they could get away without the added expense ,complexity of adding water cooling to the vessel than they would,but not so.

Absolutely gear ,or belt ratios play a huge rule and is of a primary concern and I don't build subs with no gear reduction unless its going to be a torpedo or have Jet Drive,short fast run time ,and even the full sized torpedo has some form of water cooling.

Sorry for not having the full understanding of just what it takes.

More gear reduction the torque is multiplied from the motor and the motor works less ,we all agree on that.

However ,no matter how well your drive to prop to hull design is "heat build up is a fact of life" with any powered vessel except a sail boat .

Its not a symptom but a fact of physics,in subs one of the most "effective" cures is water cooling,air cooling would be nice if casings where open to the air.

If I had too much load on the motor than why does the ESC not even get warm after a long run? Its not water cooled and its ratted for 9.6 volts!

On many ESC's water cooling is available where a "Hotter" set up is required for high speed or just to keep another set up cooler.

Most RC subs have low to moderate pitched props as do the full scale subs.Now put a gas high speed boat prop on say a Robbe Sea Wolf ,geared 3.5 :1 water cool it and the running distance and time increases tremendously because the motor has to work much less to obtain more thrust,the main reason why "PITCH" of the prop and more distance is covered by each revolution of a small diamiter prop.And man what a power curve,one has to have a ESC with a low start rate but not high amp rate.

Its a very interesting combination of factors that make up a submarines RC drive or full size vessels and I am no expert at it but I know from experience from test tank and pond runs ,countless motor drive set ups which works best on a particular sub,and they all have water cooling wheather it was "absolutely necessary or not" that point is not at issue here but to get longer run times ,a cool motor cooler and a happy one plus increased reliability ,I concluded that hay if the full size ones do it WHY NOT I.

With the resent discovery of mine of being able to use perhaps the most important tool available to any Captain in this hobby till "now"since the Rc Radio was invented. Inexpensive Telemetry that ant one can use.We , or a Marine engineer can see in real time the difference between water cooling a sub and not ,it all comes out in black and well green for that matter,no "guessing" no matter how experienced that observation may be that this fellows set up is too hot or there is an overload condition,even the props speed is measured and displayed.

Helix flyers do it,Aircraft flyers,do it,ser face boats do it,why should we not?

I don't want to sound corny but YES WE CAN!

Believe me if I see that a set up is not doing well ,I take it right out and start over,been there done that it saves money to right,but R and R is costly.lul.

Now you can build in that extra amount of safety,reliability and piece of mind into your subs or not ,I am not here to preach you all from a thrown ,pulpit or what ever, its just a simple application to solve a fact that is with all subs.From one Captain to another,its done that way to in the real world

Skip I have always loved and admired your subs they run flawlessly and are gorgeous works of art. I'm sure low in maintenance as are mine that's why I love to build them so much and improve on older designs and if I don't get the expected results I start all over again till it does from components that are made well but don't cost a lot.

I believe your WWII subs could benefit in having telemetry for many reasons as mentioned.Just an opinion ok.
Also the reason your subs run well without water cooling is because you did match the prop size,pitch,diamiter and then the inherent pointed bow "all add up" to a very efecient desighne and you dont get over working motors ect.But they get warmer under water due to increased drag.But you could make them even happier.Its cheaper having to replace that good old Pitman motor.
I have as I statted before never had to replace a cheap can motor or costlier drill motor yet do to exsesive heat.I'm sure that is true in your WWII subs.
The added minor complexity is good as long as it has more benefits than negatives and not all subs can be able to use water cooling for instance due to size constraints.
But even the Japanese Aqua racers have water cooled drives ,just to show how small a space water cooling can fit into a design.

I prefffer aluminum cooling tubes because it's lighter ,easer to bend and much cheaper than copper and copper corrodes more ,stainless is good to but the cost is high.But that's my findings.

Sure one could find ways to improve my desighne,if needed but would it be cost effective?
The coolant flow is very good since there is about 3 feet of tubbing serface area in direct contact with water all the way around the tubes and the pump dose not run at full motor spped since full power is not necessary at normal cruise and is just about never used on my subs as the drive to pitch to hull desighn is good.just the lower end of the stick travel is used about half or less.

We can debate all the ramifications and micro analize till the cows come home ,but I like to keep it inexpensive and yes simple.



Any one can build it, it's not my magic only.

And more constructive input or critisim is more than welcome and encourraged thats the spirit of this and other Forums.

Dave Amur Sub Yard

[Guest]

sunworksco

Now thats what I

sunworksco

Now thats what I call thinking it out and appliying good science prinsaples.

Thats basicly what I did on the Alfa above casing ,all stainless,great for dissapating heat without coils or a pump,but I coiled it any way so that the motor had even more cooling since its round and the serface area contacting the flat frame is much less area,even with the motor mount.

I see a great modern RC sub desighner coming here,matched with knowledge and methods ranked right up there with Engineers,this hobby is so much FUN.

[skip asay]

“I am sorry Skip but

“I am sorry Skip but you did not mention nor emphasis one of the most important properties of a marine prop and that is where water cooling plays a role and that is "PITCH" and the" Amount of it in relation to the Diameter". “

That’s a given but, to a certain extent, diameter is more important than pitch.

“Many vessels have even variable pitch props so that the torque to motor and fuel cusumption and heat dissipation can be dealt with,kind of like having a second gear box or more gears like trucks have to get up hills with heavy loads,Tugs and Ocean going Tugs have this capability and some cargo ships and some military vessels.”

True enough but not at all part of this discussion.

“I bet they all have water cooling,but that's just my observation of what Marine Engineers do.”

Also true but let’s not forget that the engines used are internal combustion which means they produce heat (and therefore power) by burning a fuel. Electric motors generate heat as a result of the amount of current flowing through them; the more current, the more heat.


“Absolutely gear ,or belt ratios play a huge rule and is of a primary concern and I don't build subs with no gear reduction ...<snip>.

That may be but you’re just not using enough.

“Also the reason your subs run well without water cooling is because you did match the prop size,pitch,diamiter and then the inherent pointed bow "all add up" to a very efecient desighne and you dont get over working motors ect.”

The pointed bow only helps when I’m on the surface. Underwater, a pointed bow is not as good as a rounded bow. And besides, my Type XXIII can't be considered to have a pointed bow. Maybe not spherical but certainly not pointed.

“Its cheaper having to replace that good old Pitman motor.”

That Pittman motor has been in my Type XXIII for 29 years and I bought it used, to boot. I don’t think I’ll be replacing it anytime soon.

“Sure one could find ways to improve my desighne,if needed but would it be cost effective?”

Sure. Design it right the first time and do away with the extra stuff.

Skip Asay

[Guest]

If the Marine engineers of

If the Marine engineers of the world said or did what you are saying:Sure. Design it right the first time and do away with the extra stuff.

Then why has that not happened?Super simple subs ,not in my life time and any Marine engineer will agre with that.

Please I am comparring "Oranges to Bannans "no pun intended,the point I am trying to say is the spherical bow is much LESS fuel efecient ,(oranges)be it electric,deisel ,atomic ,pedal power or what ever soursce.

The WWII subs like the Type VII and Type XXI ,(I never mentioned the Type XIII ,whic is a close in shore short range sub ,not desighighned for long distances)are "Banana" or canue shapped and desighned that way to "maximize fuel/electric efeciency" of the power plants avialable at that time both under and above the waves "not over all hydrodynamic ,noise drag and manueverability efeciency,that the Germans found out later by Marine engineering advancements,there is all kinds of "efeciency considerations" and compromises made to meet the priorities imposed by combat and the other guys "Level of Technology"

If the Germans had an Atomic sub, do think they would deploy a Deiesel /Electric and we would be speaking German now.

They allmost got the Bomb.

If they had the super sensative radar array GLOBE like sensor built into the BOW of there subs they would have had a tugh time moving it around above or bellow the waves with there deisel /Electric engines of that time.

Hence the logical progrestion from the Naughtilus with its pointed bow, smother serfaces stream linning and little or no limber holles,but no real advancements in submarine detection ,so when the new radar and sonar systems came out they had to make the sub wider,longer taller ect. requiring more power with the great advantages of a huge speed increase,the only means to do this was Nuklear Power ,the only viable way to make Atomic power safe without a "meltdown" was you guest it water cooling.
I said:
Many vessels have even variable pitch props so that the torque to motor and fuel cusumption and heat dissipation can be dealt with,kind of like having a second gear box or more gears like trucks have to get up hills with heavy loads,Tugs and Ocean going Tugs have this capability and some cargo ships and some military vessels.”

It is very related to this topic since we are talking about the realtion between "props" and Marine powerplants.

Lets stay on track here.

I said:
“I bet they all have water cooling,but that's just my observation of what Marine Engineers do.”

You also said:
Also true but let’s not forget that the engines used are internal combustion which means they produce heat (and therefore power) by burning a fuel. Electric motors generate heat as a result of the amount of current flowing through them; the more current, the more heat.


Thats my hole point and we finaly agree "heat is genrated No matter the type of power source ,and getting rid of it is very important.
And in my view and most of the Marine engineering comunity would agree.

If not WHY Do IT?

Gear ratios ,that is very debatable indeed but I'm happy so far and so are my Makita and Dewalt power plants ,again Telemetry will make it much easear to fine tune and if it takes a pager motor to move my Alfa then I'll get one.

Of course the Pitman is still ticking it can take the load but at under the serface its working harder getting warmer and warmer,it won't fail in its current configuration but its not operating as it was desighned to be "in the ambient air" and is unhappy

I'm not saying to you do it,but at laest be more open minded and watch inovations change the hobby for the better.

Dave Amur Ship Sub Yard

[Rogue Sub]

are you trying to say

are you trying to say that the nautilus is a better hull design then say the skipjack

[Guest]

No not at all after

No not at all after all we all know the Naughtilus was developed first and the need for better manueverabilty ,quitenes and high speed came latter with the Skip Jack desighne though it was unstable at high speed turns due to the very tall sail.

You did say that your comparring a "boat" motor to submarine motors set ups,and you have not seen a over heat in subs,I sure have on alot of fellow Captains subs,just read Mark Greens experiance with his Seaview and a hole lot more ESCs included.

Of course I use cheaper and most of the time much superior components than what is avialble at the local hobby shop on line or not.

But to obtain the best industrial grade parts without spending to much,I could use a fancy robotic motor/gear train with a very fancy price,but even they sell and recomend a good old drill motor in most cases.

Thats why you see a mixture of high grade components in my subs ,they work quite well.

Your a Navy man and a Submariner to boot,my most respected mentor is Reickover also and he was a pain and for good reason no one liked him at first with his crazy idea of putting a Nuclear power plant in the sea,in a sealed can and a hole buch of weapons.

My point is that there are thausands perhaps more components maid by different manuefacturers all combined to operate as well as possible and relliably ,designed by very sharp Engineers so that the weapons plat form will perfom as good or better than expected.

He had to make life a bit more complex for every one involved with the development of the nueclear submarine ,if it meant a bit more lausy passthroghs to beat the Russians before they developed the same thing its a bargain.

We build and desighn and operate and PAY for our subs and there complex even in there most simplest form ,a little cooling method won't harm them nor ones pocket book and is simply a GOOD IDEA

Water will absorb the heat plenty well as it moves back and forth ,faster or slower as the motor is used ,the hole reason to install water cooling is "to keep a cool running motor running cooler in a SEALED casing "and since there is a hole Sea of nice cool water just on the other side of that casing than why not tap into it.
I haven't masured the amp draw yet by telemtry as the amp/voltage sensor has not arrived yet but I will post the findings and is a good point and was considered to be not that much at all of an issue when dealing with a motor as powerfull as a HS-550 can type.
You said it your self the Nukes have high pressure cooling systems and they use water going pritty fast I bet through those heat exchangers.

I'm pritty confidant that when I demonstrate by Telemtry the diferences in temperature between water cooling and not in a RC Sub that alot of Captains arren't going to mind a few more pasthrughs ,2 only, 3/16th inch diamiter no bigger or smaller at least in my present desighn that has been very well behaved.
Believe me I would have tore it out years ago if did not behave, but its such a minor operational atumatic function like "breathing",that its just great.
No headakes especialy if you had a fleet of ladies like I have,"standardization" is also Richovers beleife and is an accsepted engineering prinsaple.

You know that

Beleave me the powerplants are well matched if not I would have ben changing them out and would not use there desighn again.

You know that

[Rogue Sub]

The water does more then

The water does more then just cool the reactor aswell. It acts as a moderator to help control the number if fissions happening in the reactor by thermalizing fast neutrons.

I have been watching this thread dave but still am not convinced of the need for cooling in our subs. I run my stuff pretty hard. especially my poor little dumas boat and have not experienced a large enough temperature on the can to cause a concern. Generally if after a run you cannot hold your finger on the motor for more then 5 seconds it is to hot and you are effecting the life and efficiency of the motor. This is something I have never seen in the hobby.

Another good point is the flow rate of the cooling water. If you are pumping to fast you will not get efficient cooling of the component. Same thing in the real boats, get to fast or to slow flow rate and you affect the efficiency of the cooling and directly the efficiency of the turbines due to the in ability to condense the steam and maintain the condenser vacuum.

I am also a self proclaimed rickoverist. The less penetrations the better. I know we are pretty good at sealing things in our subs but why add all the extra holes. They are just additional things to cause you headaches.

What is the amp draw when you hook up the pump compared to when you do not.

I also remember you always making things as cheap as possible, which I whole heatedly embrace, but isnt there extra cost involved in adding all this stuff where if you got it matched correctly you would not need it?

Kevin

[skip asay]

I'll keep this as short

I'll keep this as short as possible.

"the point I am trying to say is the spherical bow is much LESS fuel efecient"

You can't be serious. You're saying that you know more about submarine design than all the other submarine designers in the world? What are you smoking?

I think I'll let this go. I don't mind dialogue coupled with disagreements with any normal person. You, on the other hand, defy all logic. Your rambling, sometimes ridiculous, diatribe defies all reason.

PS - Have you given any thought at all to trying to prove me wrong? Or are you too full of yourself?

Skip Asay

[JWLaRue]

I keep on reading about

I keep on reading about the inferred application of (good?) engineering to r/c subs in the form of adding water cooling for the motor. But I believe that this is lazy engineering.

It makes far better sense to address the problem of heat generation rather than adding the complexity and risk of water cooling.

-Jeff

[Rogue Sub]

Im sorry dave but comparing

Im sorry dave but comparing an rc motor to a radioactive rock isnt necessarily a good argument. In reality the plant can operate with no pumps running and do so often. I am also not comparing real life sub electric motors to rc ones. There isnt a motor on the boat that is cooled electrically except for the reactor ones and that is due to the heat of the primary not the heat from the motors themselves.
Another thing I noticed is the large amount of space you use to run the system. Maybe not a big deal on the large sub but perhaps not on the smaller ones.
I remember seeing your afla at gilligans and that thing was packed to the brim. If i recall you made a hull cut on the bottom to allow the addition of more batteries. With a more efficient gear train you would not only no longer need the cooling but will also not require as many amps just to run the boat. Not to mention the weight saved from not using the batteries would cause less load on your sub as well. How much did you have in there in the end. Are you using a 12v set up still? Perhaps going to 24v would be an answer. You certainly already have the batteries. It would result in a lower amp draw and less heat production from the prop train.

[myles yancey]

Well I see this debate

Well I see this debate has gone the way of the other 2 web site's discussions.

So i will say this apparently you do not understand the theory and development of WWII submarines or Nuke Powered Submarines .

It has become apparent that you believe you know more about submarine's then the people who design and build them.

You say " my most respected mentor is Reickover " if that were ture then you would answer the challenge that was put to you by Skip.
Everyone knows that if Rickover decided something then he went ahead and proved it and back it up with facts and not assumptions and showed it to the world for everyone to see.

Dave in my oppenion all you are looking for is a pat on the back and some to say hay how great your are, next thing I see is you spent a great amount of time developing something that you feel works for you and now you want to get paid for it even if the people do not agree with you.

Last but not least this sounds like just another sales pitch from you to get the new people in the hobby that really don't fully understand the principles of building Rc Submarines yet to buy your product.

If it is not a sale pitch then prove Skip and everyone wrong or just simple concide to the people and be quiet.

Just my oppinion and no one elses Dave

Myles

[Guest]

Well I "IF" I did

Well I "IF" I did not see the "actual" read out on the telemetry I would have a hard time "Proving it to a laymen or a Engineer' .

If you all could please read the first few posts in there it shows the readings done on my Robbe U-32 with a Makita drive,first I ran the sub with the water cooling on and after about a 300 yrds walk at normal speed it read from starting at ambient temp to rise slowly to 112 F ,now is that VERY hot for hour Nuke fella? I dont think its untouchable or getting evn near hot,how warm is the human body normaly?

Please read carfully :After I disconected the cooling sytem ,I returned the sub to the pond and started the next exact test run ,I also have RPM of the prop indication,I just matched that speed again and right away the temp went up much faster and went past 115 f arond in a shorter distance,I then turned the sub around and the temp rise stabalized at 125f I slowed down and the temp went down only a degree by the time I stopped at the launch area the temp was 123 f.

I tuned on the water cooling sytem and went again but alot faster and the temp went to 118f and stayed there ,till I thraughteled down.End of test.

Returned to launch after 2 hours or so of continuese walking and diving.

I'm not running a overloaded "hot" to start with motor here to begin with,use your own cordlees drill if you have one that is of descent qulity ,mix a gallon of water or what ever for a good period of time ,it wont get very hot certainly not so hot that it can't be touched as long as its not overloaded.Due to the gearing ratio.They are made to take the loads and in ambient air.

Sure I put alot of stuff on my subs ,I ike a sub that will not just "LOOK" pritty but performe some things that the full size ones do like hydraulic masts , retracting planes ecextra and that takes space and power I would not do it in a Ravell Type VII the same way but similar and not all forcing in stuff that is not possible to fit ,take a gander at the German RC subs now some of them are over complicated but they runn pritty sweet I bet.
The Nuclear sub to serface boat refrences are for comparison in WHY they are water cooled,please dn't try to distort what i have said as I know you have done before.

Yes I did add the battery at the keel of the Alfa because I was experimenting with a secoundary back up power supply that is operated by remote and that size of battery was the best I could find at the time.If you had listened.It worked well to and has saved me from having to go back and get the car all the way back around the huge pond where I runn,just enough to get her back to port.

Now with telemetry I will have alarms that I can custom match to the subs power source and usage and eliminate the backup sytem.

Don't do what I do ,do what you wan't to do I pefer it that way ,there is more variety of ideas that way inovation will only come out of it not speculation and inuendo and saracasm , better know as "mierda",get or borrow a telemetry sytsem and experiment or just monitor your sub and then let me know how it works and if it has helped you better underrstand say the laws of thermal dynamics than I have proven my point,thats all ,but please get the facts correct .Number one I have NEVER been to Gilligans Island I don't even know where it is ,I know thats the clubs meating site thats it.Do you remember where you where?Devils Den.

Look I don't try nor wan't to be a Marine Engineer but from what I have read so far from some of our estaemed seassoned Captains they may wan't to become one.

I mearly adapt what Marine Engineers have done the best way I can with what I have and can budget.

If I did not have the "proof" in black and green in realtime I might have been inclined to add more water cooling capability.

You know the saying " the proof is in the pudding" and Engineers" MUST PROVE that it WORKS" or its not built.
Your Laptop you are probably using right now in many cases uses a form of water/liquid cooling. Ever worked on one?

Now Im sorry if the truth herts some folks and my wasting of the braudband time limit,as Skip said, but hay, WHOS TIME,inovation has no limit,the qust or thirst for knowledge has no limit and as long as your open to it and acsept that its benificial and frankly, THERES NOT A THING ANY OF US CAN DO ABOUT IT.


Yes! sunworksco you have the right attitude and clear understanding of whats needed and along with telemetry which Nasa uses as we all know to develop the Space Program,just emagine no telemetry ,"Huston we have a problem!"

Only real "live" information results along with in the case with Nasa ,Lockeed Martin,Grumen,Electric Boat and a hole slew of manufactures worth there salt with educated folks produce the vast output of the Military Industrial Complex,that said ,till only a few yars ago some of the most important tools has tricled down to the general public at an affordable cost.Thank godness

You said it man in three words what has taken me alot more to well explian a factor in calculations.

"frontal area of sub"

Myles Yancey

Im also sory and fully apologise to any one who might dissagre ,this is not a see who has the more gray matter debate, I am not making incinuations just observations of what "IS" an acsepted fact or facts not based on fiction ,hearsay or letting my ego ,or PRIDE GET IN THE WAY. Like others:roll:

If I was like that I would not bother to even post nor perchase the Telemetry sysstem I would be VERY HAPPY to just keep it to my self and see what you guys come up with

I do remember Skip , to put it tactfully ,ellecting to not continue the debate on the other site ,I did not quit nor would I, its a free country still as far as I know and ones opinion can still be expressed hopefully with an open minded audiance and you or others don't have to raed it .

I don't "need" a tap on the shoulder though greatly apreciated and many Captains experianced or just getting there Dolfins wet have emailed me on what I suggest in a build or system,if they wan't to buy a part or even a hole sub ,thats great and UP TO THEM ,I would be proud to serve as best as I can,I know I won't "get rich" at slaveing over hours on some of these inovative components thatI have spent time and money developing for MY subs and if there "products to you and others so what" I'm not making you buy them,I thaught we are in a free Capitalist Society and anny one can start on the kitchen table ,like Bill Gates,another mentor.

Doesnt Skip make good product also.?I might have the wrong shop.



Absolutly I will challange good oll Skip! and any one else,lets have a Captain that is going to Carmel take with him on one of his subs the telemetry system or any other one that is good and demonstrate a non water cooled subs motor temp , I can provide a test capsule that will have a water cooled motor and with the same prop exetra set up and then compare the two,which is running cooler?

Any one outhere interested? I would love go but I am sorry to sayI am too poor and have to many comittments to make it up there,the economy is not doing me any favors either.

Also I am not a traveling salesman and the aqusition of ritches is not my goal,just haveing fun inovating and running my ladies.

Man some of you guys just can't lighten up and get real its sad to see this smeared on the this fine Forum but it all runs down hill.

Im sorry again if I sound like a" pendejo" and my stile of building subs offends some folks but thats my way, for each is a"unique"machine,you build yours your way and we can talk shop thats what this hobby is all about. And the highly respected saying at least in my book"To each his own" can and ofen clouds ones openmindedness.

I understand kinda what Rickover had to go threw WOW


Dave