The Toledo R/C Show

[kazzer]

Perhaps I didn't make it

Perhaps I didn't make it clear. I'm not debating anything. What other vendors have done in the past, and what they do now, doesn't sway me one way or the other.

I have better things to do than attend shows like the one at Toledo. They simply don't make enough money (for me) to want to spend my time nickel and diming a booth for a whole weekend. I guess I value my weekends at more than $15-20 an hour, a going rate for selling a few boat parts.

I note that those suggesting I attend these shows are no longer in 'the business'. I wonder why? Perhaps not enough money in it for them too?

To say that the market is small and there aren't many people daft enough to want to get into submarines is ridiculous. Since I started in this business, we've sold over 150 models in about 1 year, to many people who have never been to a submarine model show. I doubt ANYONE has done THAT sort of volume before. I expect to DOUBLE that figure this year.

There is a bigger market out there, but it won't be reached by attending these shows. The few model subs I have seen on other booths look as if they've been around a long time, collecting dust.

If other vendors want to attend these venues, good luck to them. I won't be there, and I'll bring more new people into the hobby.

Does that make more sense?

I was hoping someone would suggest something a little more positive to kick this hobby into another gear.

[Guest]

If you want to sell

If you want to sell high volume, I think you will have to supply model submarines that go together like a Lego kit.

The people that have either the time or inclination to make things are diminishing with every passing year.

Thundertiger's Neptune goes together with a set of screwdrivers- you could train a chimp to build it. There is no more to it than a tamiya model car, infact less, because you don't have to paint it.

Now I know many model submariners don't like this product, but if you're looking at it from a business point of view, the model shop owners that I've spoken to say they shift as many as they can get in stock.

I reckon there is probably a good market for dress-up shells and other hop-up parts for this model. Similar to what the whirly-bird brigade do with their helicopters.

Whether this helps the hobby from a regatta point of view is a moot point.

In my experience it's often the most creative and talented modelmakers who spend the least amount of money on their models. Which is probably hell if you're a business owner, and heaven if your a hobbyist.

Andy

[kazzer]

In my experience it's often

In my experience it's often the most creative and talented modelmakers who spend the least amount of money on their models. Which is probably hell if you're a business owner, and heaven if your a hobbyist.

BINGO!

Yes, Merriman and I have come to that conclusion, so we now aim our Sub-drivers at the KIT ASSEMBLERS, and we sell mainly styrene plastic models from Revell, Trumpeter etc.

High end fiberglass models are simply not popular, especially in the USA.When some of these cost over $1000 and have almost no instructions for a Kit Assembler, then it is no wonder 'the average joe' doesn't feel confident to get into the hobby, and sales are lackluster.

The Moebius Seaview is a great example of a successful styrene model. We have an initial order in for FIFTY models and they are pretty much all sold! Want one? Get 'em while you can!

[Guest]

Fantastic kit, but Seaview has

Fantastic kit, but Seaview has never pushed my buttons.

Flying sub, Disney nautilus and Proteus are all favourites of mine.

Moebius are making noises about a 1/24th or 1/32nd FS1, so that should sell like hot cakes if it matches the Seaview for quality.

Andy

[skip asay]

“I guess I value my

“I guess I value my weekends at more than $15-20 an hour, a going rate for selling a few boat parts.”

Judging by my and the Shubar’s experience, I’d say you’re off by a factor of at least 3. And that’s counting the hours in transit to and from.

“I note that those suggesting I attend these shows are no longer in 'the business'. I wonder why? Perhaps not enough money in it for them too?”

Since I’m the only one who you could say this about, all I have to say is that I was quite successful for the 13 years I was in business but then I SOLD the business. I didn’t just quit.

“To say that the market is small and there aren't many people daft enough to want to get into submarines is ridiculous.”

Let me see, you’ve been involved for what, a year? Maybe 2? I’ve been involved for close to 40 years so I feel qualified to say that. But I have another advantage that you don’t have. I HAVE attended these hobby trade shows which has given me a tremendous amount of insight that the internet could never do. I’ve spoken with literally thousands of people annually, some of whom are dyed in the wool bubbleheads, some of whom are “wannabe’s”, and some of whom are interested.....but not quite. So I’ll say it again. The size of the available customer base is small. It always has been and always will be.

“Since I started in this business, we've sold over 150 models in about 1 year, to many people who have never been to a submarine model show. I doubt ANYONE has done THAT sort of volume before.”

Sorry. Been there. Done that. I used to average 150 - 175 Albacores per year for the first few years. Then it dropped to an average of 125 -150 but held. And the overwhelming majority of these went to first timers. Read that as “newbies” or newcomers to the hobby.

Skip Asay

[kazzer]

Skip

Well even at $45-60 an

Skip

Well even at $45-60 an hour, for weekend work, I'm not interested! Sorry! But then, I'm not marking up my products by a factor of three or four either.

You are telling me that other vendors are currently selling 200 models a year?

Are we in a pissing match here? If so, I'm not interested in this banter, Skip, sorry.

I'm done.

[skip asay]

“Pissing match?” I wasn’t aware

“Pissing match?” I wasn’t aware of it. Education? Yes. Enlightenment? Yes. Do we disagree? Yes. I’m just trying to show you that your thinking is based on the wrong foundation. But I have to say that when someone throws out ridiculous statements when they perceive themselves backed into a corner really bothers me.

“But then, I'm not marking up my products by a factor of three or four either.”
I certainly don’t know where this is coming from.

“You are telling me that other vendors are currently selling 200 models a year?”
And I’ve looked through all of my posts and I can’t find anything that says anything even remotely close to this.

Mike. you seem to be a “my mind’s made up, don’t confuse me with the facts” type of fella so I’ll just drop the subject.

Skip Asay

[kazzer]

I wasn't going to post

I wasn't going to post on this topic again, BUT -----

[quote]“But then, I'm not marking up my products by a factor of three or four either.”
I certainly don’t know where this is coming from. [/quote]

Profitability is about the 'mark-up'. If I add 25% to my cost and you add 200%, then you may make money faster, if you can sell the product at the inflated price. My mark-up is lower because I want it to be like that. I make a damned good living without submarines.

I have to wonder where all those Albacores are? I don't ever hear of them, but then I'm a newbie, so what do I know? Are you sure you have those numbers right, or are they all with Davey Jones?

When you say $60 an hour, DO YOU MEAN SALES OR PROFIT? There is a slight difference.

Lets assume you mean profit - Including traveling time eh?
Assume only ONE person manning the booth.
20 hours driving to almost any show.
3 day show = 30+ hours booth time, so we have 50 hours work in a show.
60 x 50 = $3000 PROFIT, which means you have to be selling about $10,000 at every show! Lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just sold the big ticket stuff. Average Albacore price of $500 means you have to sell 10000/500 = 20 boats a show! Boy! Even if you improved your margin to a 100% markup, it still means that currently a vendor would sell about 12 boats. WOW!

My hat is off to you Sir! I obviously do not know anything about this business. I need educating it seems.

Now I'm done!

[chips]

Sub culture made some good

Sub culture made some good valid points about the Thunder Tiger NEPTUNE. You want to get more people driving rc subs, then an inexpensive HOBBY GRADE RTR sub is needed in the $300-500 price range. ProBoat and AquaCraft are already producing RTR nitro and brushless go fast boats as well as scale boats in that price range. After a year or two of running the same sub as everyone else, then some of those people would move up to converting a plastic kit or using a fiberglass hull.

I happen to work in the local hobby shop, and we sell a lot of the RTR nitro cars in the $300-500 price range, as well as some of the RTR boats. The question I get asked most when customers find out I run rc subs is: How do you see when it's under water? or How do you know where it's at? My answer is "Dead reckoning, just like Erik the Red and Columbus used to discover America.
Second question is usually: Where's the fun in that? My answer is - "I'm the only one in the area doing it, so I don't have to fight the crowd.

I can get a Futaba 4 channel radio, ESC, and wither the Revel GATO, Type VIIC, Type VIIC/41 or Moebius SEAVIEW for around $200. The radio, ESC, and one of the Dumas subs costs me around $250. I haven't even factored in the motor, battery, Subsafe, or APC; which adds about another $150. I did order one of the SEAVIEW package deals with Sub Driver from Caswell back in October or November,; because the package deal worked out better than what I could get from the hobby shop where I work. I'm still waiting for the SEAVIEW kit to arrive. The SEAVIEW will be my 7th sub. My first one is a Scale Shipyard 1:72 scale SKIPJACK, with a D&E WTC; sub #2 is a Thor Design 1:96 PERMIT, with a D&E WTC; sub #3 is a Scale Shipyard 1:96 scale GATO with a Dave Manley WTC. Sub #4 is waiting to be built, a SubTech MARLIN, which will be converted to the MACKEREL as the NR-1 test sub; sub #5 is the Trumpter 1:144 scale KILO waiting to be built; sub #6 is the Revel Type VIIC/41, also waiting to be built.

[petn7]

Sub culture made some good

[quote]Sub culture made some good valid points about the Thunder Tiger NEPTUNE. You want to get more people driving rc subs, then an inexpensive HOBBY GRADE RTR sub is needed in the $300-500 price range. ProBoat and AquaCraft are already producing RTR nitro and brushless go fast boats as well as scale boats in that price range. After a year or two of running the same sub as everyone else, then some of those people would move up to converting a plastic kit or using a fiberglass hull.

I happen to work in the local hobby shop, and we sell a lot of the RTR nitro cars in the $300-500 price range, as well as some of the RTR boats. The question I get asked most when customers find out I run rc subs is] Where's the fun in that? [/b]My answer is - "I'm the only one in the area doing it, so I don't have to fight the crowd.

I can get a Futaba 4 channel radio, ESC, and wither the Revel GATO, Type VIIC, Type VIIC/41 or Moebius SEAVIEW for around $200. The radio, ESC, and one of the Dumas subs costs me around $250. I haven't even factored in the motor, battery, Subsafe, or APC; which adds about another $150. I did order one of the SEAVIEW package deals with Sub Driver from Caswell back in October or November,; because the package deal worked out better than what I could get from the hobby shop where I work. I'm still waiting for the SEAVIEW kit to arrive. The SEAVIEW will be my 7th sub. My first one is a Scale Shipyard 1]

The joy of building is a lost pleasure.

[anonymous]

Not here it isn't. I

Not here it isn't. I scratch build and convert kits.

Steve

[chips]

Each person has their own

Each person has their own "joy level" when it comes to modeling. Most of us on these boards do a fair amount of scratch building, kit bashing, and kit assembling - in various quantities for each model. On my SKIPJACK and PERMIT, I scratchbuilt the props from brass stock. It's not uncomon for me to spend several hours a day in my basement shop building some part for a model, stripping paint of an RTR for a custom paint job, or just drawing up some working plans for a part. Some people ar not as mechanically inclined as others.