Where is the money?

[jeffrey j]

[color=#810541]If we have an average of 1000 members , at $26.00 a person, would it really cost more than $26,000.00 a year to have the report put together and mailed? And run a money making Subregatta once a year? I personally never investegated the cost for something like this, but can hardly believe it would be anywhere close to this kind of a price. Last I heard the SubCommittee had $10,000.00+ in CD's. Could someone break this down here so we can see whats going on? Thanks in advance and respectfully]

[wheels]

Jeff....Here's some information you and

Jeff....Here's some information you and others may be surprised at. It costs about $6,000 to produce an issue of the SCR, this figure includes postage too. People like our treasurer, editor, and membership chairman have expenses, such as postage. If we had 1000 members your number would be correct, but 6,000 times 4 equals 24,000 so you see there isn't much money left. As of right now we have 909 members. As for the CD yes we have monies set aside for a rainy day, if we were to say let's continue at any cost would it wise? My thoughts are no it isn't because, when the well runs dry what do you do?

You state you are will to help and I'm sure other might chime in similarly.....My question to you and the rest is when I repeatedly asked for volunteers I got no one, where were you then? Does it take the death of SCR and possibly the SubCommittee to wake you up? Bottom line is we are an organization run by volunteers...EITHER BEGIN TO VOLUNTEER OR WATCH DEATH OCCUR!

Respectfully,
Jim Wheeler

[jeffrey j]

Jim, thanks for your quick

Jim, thanks for your quick and honest reply, yes I am willing to do almost anything to prevent the "DEATH" of the SubCommittee, after being an active member for over 11 years, it really scares me to read this is a possibility. I did write and send in an article once on my subs , but never saw a word of it in print. So figured I would'nt send in another. Besides jumping in head first and saying I will step up to the plate as the next editor of the report, what needs to be done? And yes I would like to see the publication stay in print. I haven't been keeping up with the membership count, but thought it was much higher, many thanks to all involved... Jeff Jones

[ray schwartz]

hi jim,
i would have

hi jim,
i would have no problem with the dues going to 30 or 35 dollars a year .
how about 3 issuses of the scr a year instead of 4 ?
if the dues did go up , how about a break for members over 65 ,as some of them are on fixed incomes..
just a thought..
ray

[jeffg]

I would have no problem

I would have no problem doubling my dues. This is a great hobby and the people have always acted as though we were good friends.

Ditto the dues idea for the retireees.

The quality of our magazine is so great and I look forward to it. Please lets keep it up there. If sometimes we only have three issue per year so be it.

Hopefully

JeffG

[wadester13]

I would like to say

[color=#000000]I would like to say that I am sorry that I had to step down as the upcoming editor but as many has stated, there are few submissions for articles. I was thinking about withdrawing my membership due to the contributions and involvement, but I may reconsider. Maybe not for me, but an increase in dues means less members, bottom line.

My input is]

[downscope]

Following up an earlier thread

Following up an earlier thread here about the nature of the SCR - whether it should continue on paper or go to a web based entity - why does it have to be either extreme?

First of all, a strictly web based structure will die. Fast or slow, it will happen. Especially when a select few stiffle input they are not comfortable with. Yup - censors. Look at what the censors in our group have done to the input and participants. It is 1/3 or less of what it was. Shoot me down, but it is a fact. OK, there used to be some rants and flames. So what? It kept interest alive. Now it is so bland that I might die of boredom. I used to go to the boards every day. Now? Maybe once every 10 days. Get rid of the censors, first of all. Sorry if you don't like that Jeff, but your totalitarian approach is slowly killing the Subcomittee. I would rather read Merriman's rants than your pablum any day.

Now, about the SCR. How much is paper and mailing costs? Right, a lot. Yet people still want something they can put in their hands. So why not have a 2 tier membership? The premier members would receive a CD instead of paper SCR; regular members would receive an email PDF SCR that they could print out themselves. That would save a lot of money. And it works. We do that in our IPMS group and our flyfishing club and it is now preferred over the old hardcopy. Why not here. Either we change with the times or we shall wither and die.

Any organization reflects those who lead it ("As the twig is bent, so the tree inclines." - Virgil). Our blandness reflects those who lead us. Maybe in considering changes, we need to consider a change of leadership.
Kevin Wenker

[thordesign]

I do not think it

I do not think it fair to blame anyone or any specific event for the slow demise of the SubCommittee. Interest in all hobbies of this type, including R/C airplanes, plastic models, and so on has been on a slow consistent decline for the past several years and it does not appear to be getting any better. Models submarines are certainly no exception. I have several friends who are in various other hobbies as manufucturers-r/c cars, jets, and rockets. All have seen a similar decline in interest in the last 5 years specifically.

Do not count on advertising money to help the SCR out. The most activity I ever had as a vendor was from the little banner I used to run on this site. The money spent advertising in the written report was a waste of hard earned money, in my opinion, as there was little to no response. Lee and I, as well as some of the other vendors, have had almost identical observations as far as hull kit sales go regarding the report. Lee is into a much larger market with his surface hulls which is what keeps him alive.

I think we all need to realize that this is a small group...we are not being successful at securing volunteers to abuse anymore to keep the SCR going much longer. In my opinion, it is very unlikely, and even unrealistic given the current circumstances to expect the SCR to continue in its current form. As a matter of fact, I am extremely suprised it has made it this long. We need to come up with a minimalistic alternative. Lee is right on a number of points...number one being that if the SCR goes away so does the SC. That very well may be true...It looks like we are going to discover the truth very soon...

[bob the builder]

Looks like we've got this

Looks like we've got this topic happening in two places... maybe one of the moderators can tidy things up a bit?

[JWLaRue]

Downscope said]strongly disagree with your

Downscope said]strongly[/b] disagree with your comment. In fact, I challenge you to name how moderating these forums has stiffled open and free information sharing. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times that I have had to step in and in some fashion deal with problem posts on these forums. The feedback that Jim Wheeler and I have received regarding this new forum format and our careful moderation of it's content has been overwhelmingly positive.

You don't like it? Do something! It's not like we haven't been asking (pleading) for additional member support.

If you really feel strongly that I am somehow responsible for the demise of the SubCommittee, then step up and do something constructive. I am sick and tired of all the whining that we get out of a certain few....that's what's having a negative effect on this organization.

Since you have chosen to focus on my perceived shortcomings, let me return the favor]is[/b] the kind of support that I have within this organization.....then maybe it's time for me to just stop doing *everything* and let folks like you, Kevin, pick up the pieces.

Good luck and good bye.

Jeff

[Guest]

I think some people have

I think some people have a very short memory.

I remember the chain of events that lead up to the introduction of messageboard censorship, and considered that the subcommittee leadership was extemely patient with certain folk who seemed h#ll bent on airing political views and launching personal attacks.

It was doing the organisation no favours, and had nothing to do with model submarines.

The new messageboards should encourage creativity and exchange of ideas. We now have the facility to post pictures, files and have our own members pages.

If people haven't anything better to do than complain about one another, the country, politics or the flipping weather that's not the fault of the leadership, it's the fault of individual members who can't be bothered to get off their collective backsides and lend a hand.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen folk post an interesting thread on something they've built or are having trouble with, then receive a meagre response, often from relative newcomers.

Soon as a subject which is controversial airs itself on these boards, folk who hardly post from one month to the next come creeping out of the woodwork to stick the knife in.

Andy



Edited By Sub culture on 1094672612

[JWLaRue]

Well said, Andy!

-many thanks,

Jeff

Well said, Andy!

-many thanks,

Jeff

[subdude]

Jeff, and Andy,

Both well put,

Jeff, and Andy,

Both well put, evenly considered, and thoughtful replies. I must admit, when I got most of the way down this thread, my blood began to boil a bit. Your calm answers certainly helped to temper my attitude.

I must, however, add my .02 to this. If anyone really thinks that flame fests, personal attacks, and political rants were doing The SubCommittee any good, I would love to hear your reasoning behind it. In my capacity as Membership Chair, I not only know quite well the membership status, but am often informed by the members as to their likes, dislikes, and why they did, or more importantly did not, renew their membership in this organization. I will tell you right here and now, the number of members we lost over that inane, childish behavior, was far, far more valuable than the "amusement value" that apparently a few individuals get from "stirring the pot". I won't pretend to understand the thrill some people get from starting a pi$$ing match and then fanning the flames. I don't get it.

Plain and simple, that behavior drove some very valuable contributors to this hobby away. I'm happy for you that it "kept your interest alive", but we all have lost an immeasurable value of information in the end due to it.

Kevin, this part is especially for you. If you had even the remotest idea how much time, effort, and dedication that Jeff LaRue, Jim Wheeler, Bill Vanderslice, Bob Martin, Marshall Clark, Ken Hart, Jerry Pavano, Les Palifka, Les Hopper, and some others put into this group both in the past and present just so it continues to exist, I think you may change your attitude a bit. Maybe not. I don't know. All I can really tell you is these guys have devoted one heck of a signifigant amout of their lives to trying to grow this hobby, and don't deserve to be abused for giving so unselfishly of their selves and their lives. If you think that the leadership is "bland" as you put it, fine. I look forward to hearing your views and position on how to best grow the hobby, and will be anxious to see which of the elected or appointed positions you will be willing to devote your life to for the next three or six years.

Jim Butt
Membership Chairman



Edited By subdude on 1094681616

[raalst]

For what it's worth,



For what it's worth,

Is this the same kevin wenker who warns his fellow (?)
hobbists about him having copyright on a drawing of
a VIIc emblem in the static forum ?
If so WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT CENSORING AGAIN ??

So you don't like where this club is going ?
Please part from this club then, or contribute.
what articles did I read from you in the SCR lately ?

Apparently you almost have Jeff complying with your
request for a change in leadership.
If he does, I expect YOU to take his place and make
up for that loss.

Not that I truly believe you could even half replace
someone like jeff.

Sorry for the flame (remove it if you must)
but I felt I had to make clear whose cntributions
to the club I value,
and whose I do not.

Ps, all information I published in these forums and
in the SCR are copyrighted by me.
I hereby explicitly forbid kevin wenker to make any use
of that information in any form.
Anybody else is welcome to do whatever they like with it,
of course.

[m. munger]

I'll toss my observations/opinions in

I'll toss my observations/opinions in too....

The leadership we have (and soon HAD) for OUR organization were voted on by us. I'd have to say in today's litigious society, everyone has to try and protect their assets, else some 'fool with a heck of a lawyer' will steal it all away, right or wrong, because they were injured in some way. Jim and Jeff have been our elected officials, and love 'em or hate (possibly read as support or urinate upon) them, they've done what was asked... namely leadership. We are all imperfect beings (except Mr. Merriman) (that was a joke guys, kinda!! ) in an imperfect world. What are you going to do to effect positive change? Mr. LaRue has done a heck of a job producing/editing the SCR and 'babysitting' the message boards. They've done a better job than I'm capable of doing, and if you can do better, get your name into then and volunteer to DO something about it. How many times do you have to be crapped on before you'd throw in the towel. This a very small, somewhat opinionated group. What CAN you do about it? DO SOMETHING positive. When YOU get elected president or VP or become editor or babysitter of the website, you'd have to have take into account the opinion of whomever might visit. I'll expect to see your name on the election form (if there is one).

Membership- we have ~1000 members worldwide, yet we have only ~560 'registered users' of the website. To get the same revenue from just a pay-per-use website we'd have to pay roughly twice as much. I love the printed SCR, I can read it on the can, at lunch at work, loan to an interested or non-believing friend, unlike I'd ever do with my laptop. Would I give away my PDF printed copy (and thus potentially violate the copyright) heck no... that's an ethics thing we each need to embrace or care not about. I know of several members that do-not or rarely visit and post on this website for whatever personal reasons. Perhaps they liked the old one with it's "hit-the-button-and-you-can't-change-or-correct-the-vomit-you-spewed-forth" message board. Everyone has an opinion, some just choose not to express theirs.

Innovations in the hobby... sure we need more, and then share the secrets... grow that seed of innovation. How many ways can you get a pushrod through an endcap and still keep the WTC portion WT... I can think of three. Mr. Merriman is the one who put the "C" in WTC. I love his writing style... it's to the point, accepts no crap, and tells it like it is. I recall a disclaimer at the top of his SCR articles, and remember his "open letter to Rick Teskey" from the old boards that some folks freaked out about. It wasn't carved in stone (although it could have been!), but come on folks... who's going to go through the SC fast food drive thru and spill hot tea in their lap (coffee's been done already) and somehow rationalize that it wasn't a direct result of their own action?

Jim & Jeff and the other folks who have taken the ball and run with it might not have gone in the direction YOU wanted, but they did take up the ball. They are about done with their responsibilities, so what ARE you going to do about it?? I'll try getting an article together on my adventures in wireless video, I intend to share my experiences and try and show where I failed... just to give back something to this organization that I have learned MUCH from. It probably won't be in the December issue (if there even is one), but folks, WE need to do something other than stamp out the ashes of this niche hobby.

Sincerely, and respectfully,

Matt Munger

PS- if any of this offends you, forget you read it.