Format for Sharing 3D Designs?

[aeroengineer1]

I know that there are not many out there that will appreciate this, but I know that Matt might have some thoughts he would like to add. I am thinking about how to create a file that can be shared for doing 3D designs for hulls and such. This is not so much as a Step/IGES conversation, but a conversation of what should be in those files.

As we all use different modeling packages (I use 3 depending on the project or what I am trying to do), we will be sharing dumb data. Though, as time goes on, we will want to be able to incorporate new things into the model as we learn things. Say for example as I am working the George Washington boat design, I release something today, I know that there are areas that will be modeler's judgement, and are based on less reliable information. Time, though may end up giving new information that would allow for a future update of that model to come into compliance with the new information.

Here are my initial thoughts. The file should include all sketches that are used for lofting. It should not include all untrimmed surfaces as that would just get too messy. It should include final hull solid/surface. Any other things that should or should not be included?

Adam

[salmon]

Adam,
This is a great conversation! A naming convention that includes date would help in revisions. A text file in the package acknowledging the original creator as well as any subsequent authors and version history. I am not convinced it needs to be colored. Should we standardize on mm or inches? These are some quick thoughts.
Peace,
Tom

[aeroengineer1]

As to a naming convention, I am not particular, though if using a date format, we should pick one that will sort well in all operating systems.

As to the text file, I would not only propose that, but also a repository that would have all the source documentation as well. Might be able to use GitHub or something similar, but these things will get large with all the pictures. To me, it would be good to not only have a text file, but a PowerPoint explaining where sources were used, and the level of confidence in those sources.

On the units, I do not necessarily think that there needs to be a standard, only that it is documented which the model is in. That is my thought, I could perhaps be persuaded one way or the other, but I tend to work in both, so it really does not matter much to me.

Adam

[JWLaRue]

I would think that simply using a revision number or letter as part of the file name would be sufficient.

One thing that would be useful to include is a view of the CAD file saved in something like PDF or JPEG so that interested parties can quickly see what is there.

Last.....how much file space are we talking about? We have a large file storage allocation as part of our ISP fee for the SC web site. Perhaps we can leverage that....

-Jeff

[aeroengineer1]

The actual size of the cad files, I would not imagine over a hundred meg, but with pictures and such, I have to think that a file with a lot of details could go to a GB. I imagine that some boats might be smaller, but others larger.

I like the idea of previews. One would have to think of how this could be done well.

I guess overall, I would like to be able to provide the work that I am doing in an open source method. This would allow for the community to go and update these models in the future as new information came available, or scale them to what ever size they wished.

The challenges are in the fact that there is no good defacto software for open source cad work, especially one needed for this type of work (many boats will need some specialized surfacing tools). So because there is no standardization for the tool, trying to find the best way to provide to the community a file that can be updated. This will limit ability to do work concurrently, but is better than the nothing that we have.

This will then allow for model fabrication via many different methods, from traditional to 3D printing or CNC.

[scott t]

A way to save pdf files and cad files would be great. Please do this first. Please.

Drawn full scale in US standard or metric depending on the reference documents.


I would like to suggest including section and station showing divisions along the hull
for the scratch builders that are not printing their hulls.

Thanks for your desire to share aeroengineer1.

[salmon]

If our site has the storage capacity, it should be kept here.

[sam reichart]

Does the hosting site provide backups of the storage we are provided? Something to consider.

[JWLaRue]

We have unlimited storage and geo redundancy. Also have backup, but it's really snapshot and only goes back 6 days. For hosting something like these CAD files, we'll enable a true backup capability.

-Jeff

[salmon]

Jeff,
This is a slight digression from the conversation, but is a pet peeve of mine. When I first started working on subs, I was searching like a maniac. Some of the most promising findings turned out to be duds because the photos were hosted somewhere else and the images deleted. So, as an example, you would have a description of "look how I detailed this widget, it will be important if you are building this sub" and the picture is not found the posting becomes useless. More recently we had Photobucket stop the usage of your own photos at third party sites unless you paid a hefty price. So, now we have websites that are missing great images and information. I am a visual learner I guess. It is really good news to me, that when we upload an image to the SC site, it will be there in the future. Articles and build pages will remain populated with relevant images as long as the images are uploaded. O.K. rant over. I will return to the previously scheduled program. LOL

[aeroengineer1]

I would like to hear from Matt before I start off on this adventure, but the first boat that I would like to do a test on is the GW. For support materials, I have somewhere in the range of 400-500 pictures, and various piping tabs.

Next inline:
Type A.
midget Sub Una
Skipjack (not hard once you have info on the GW)
SSBN-611
Albacore
Kairyu
Koryu-Not sure I have enough info for me yet to do this one
688 Class
HA-201

Just so that I am not getting anyone's hope up, this represents at least a few years worth of work at the rate I work. You can suggest a boat, but for me the boat had to be a streamlined boat, not intended to do better at surface sea keeping but fast under the water. I would be open to looking at doing some other boats, but for me the research phase can take years. I would need very good information to start with to cut that cycle. I am a bit of a rivet counter (not completely, but when I find discrepancies, I want to know why they were there).

One thing that might be interesting is if we could work with a CAD company to see if they might give us some low cost, floating license (license check would have to be able to be checked out from the web). This is something that would really cause me to look at paying a membership fee plus an adder as a CAD user to be able to check out the models. I would say to help supplement it, another membership level could be created with access to the models and the support material, but it is still pretty easy to share these things. If I could have my dream package, it would be CATIA, but that would eat the group out of house and home, SolidWorks works, but is not really a surfacing tool (despite them stating that it is), Rhino is used at a low level in the ship industry, and might be one to use. I know that Matt has a lot of experience with it. I have never used it myself, but I am sure it would not be hard to learn. Onshape is a web based tool which I am not a fan of web based tools, but could work for a setup like I am proposing here. I would be a bit leery as they have SolidWorks heritage, and I would doubt how well their surfacing package works.

Just some thoughts. Perhaps a bit out there, but if they could be done, they would be interesting.

Adam

[JWLaRue]

Tom,

Absolutely! Hosting photos within our web/forum environment was an important consideration when looking for a new provider. There were too many issues with using 3rd party photo hosting sites.

-Jeff

[scott t]

What will it take to be able to upload other files besides bitmaps and jpegs?

[JWLaRue]

Time for our webmaster to weigh in, but in general we'll need to create a web form (or something similar) to facilitate this.

-Jeff

[X Bubblehead]

Late to this party as I just perused this thread, but I might have a little to add.

First, I'm a professional 3D artist, specializing in technical animation and being an X Bubblehead, can create just about any submarine if I have decent reference material. For work, I'll take CAD models, (SolidWorks / ProE) and convert the design engineer's work into photo-realistic renders, which play a lot better with clients than the usual green, purple, and red output they render.

My main 3D app is Lightwave3D, but I have software to convert many popular 3D formats for import/export. Obj files work well, and are pretty standard for most apps to export. Using STL files, models can be converted for 3D printing, one hull section at a time, which opens up a lot of possibilities.

If you want to get something going in regards to 3D formats, let me know.

CCC