Where to start.....

[EdT3]

Although I have been a lurker for a lot of years, I had never before registered. I have been on and off involved with RC airplanes for a long time, but have kind of lost interest due to needing to travel 20 miles to reach an RC airfield. I live near a small no wake lake in Nebraska, near Omaha, which is where I'd like to use the sub. I posted this in General, not Builders, because I'm not sure where to start. What I WANT to build or buy is probably not what I should start with so the questions I have are:

• Are there other members in my area?
• Any formal or informal get togethers in my area?
• What is a good sub to start with? Price is an object but I'm not looking for something with a $100.00 cost. Hopefully I'm not looking at a $3000.00 cost either.
• Kit, purchase or scratch built? It seems that scratch means more sub for somewhat less money, at least until creeping features show up. It also means longer until you get a boat into water.

I have some model making experience, but that was airplanes and balsa, and they were kits. I did download and read the Steve Neill PDF from this website, but most of the methods described are ones I have never tried.

I'd appreciate any advice, including where I should have posted this if I'm in the wrong area.

Ed

[Ralph --- SSBN 598]

Good morning, Ed,
You say you have been lurking for some time.
Then you know there is not just one way to build a submarine.
As where to start, well that depends on you and the choices you are going to make.

building the sub hull is the easier part.
Building the stuff that goes inside can get complicated if you let it.

First thing is to decide on what subject your want to work on.
Over the years, I have seen those who have chosen detailed boats because they liked the way they looked or some other reason.
These boats are usually very detailed and or have lots of things that need to go inside to make them work.

WWI & WWII boats have that old look.
Nuke boats look like rounded off pipes with much less external detail.

When I started, models where big.
6" diameter minimum to get the electronics in them.
This made them about 5' long or more.
Transportation was a problem.
As electronics and batteries became smaller, so did the models.
But then another problem showed up.
The inside of the boats got smaller and it was harder to get radios, servos and other stuff needed to fit.

So the point is, what ever you choose there will be trade offs.

The plastic model Skipjack is a good model to start out on as it has a 5.5" diameter and it is 42" long which will fit on the back set of all most all cars.
It can be made to use a 3 channel radio.
4 would be better.
Propeller, rudder, stern planes and ballast system.

The sail planes do not need to be controlled.
You can but this adds more complication to the build.
There are other plastic kits to choose from as well.

Scratch building a hull, deck and conning tower/sail is not something to do for a first boat unless you are very good at this sort of thing.

Make a list of boats you like.
What size is there.
List what controls you think it needs.
See what is available.

Ask questions and find out who here may have built the same type of boat you are thinking about.

As you can see, I am not of much help.
There are just so many variable to give a single answer.
Once you start making the lists, then it will be easier to help.

Another thought is, you want your first sub to be as uncomplicated as you can stand.
This will get you in the water sooner with a boat that will have fewer issues.

Then you can built a more complicated boat which can take a very long time while running your first boat.

Building a working submarine is not like building display models or airplanes or even surface boats.
They all have one thing in common, they all will go to the bottom of the lake.
Hopefully you build a submarine that comes back to the surface on purpose. ;^)
===============
Posting here is fine.
How about starting by listing here the submarines that interest you.

[EdT3]

Ralph,

The list of submarines that interest me are:
US submarines:

• Gato class submarines. Wahoo would be a specific sub of this class I'd be interested in.
• Skipjack class submarines.
• Los Angeles class.
• USS Dolphin, the last diesel powered US sub.

Other nations:

• British T class, Astute class boats.
• Russian Yankee,Yasen.

The one sub I would really like to build is way beyond my capacity: Seaview. I am old enough to have watched the series during the original run in the 60's. This is a maybe never future project. I've seen the Deboer model and it's price, and it's out of my league. I've also read that it is definitely not a beginners boat. I made that mistake when getting into RC aircraft, I built a model that required more experience than I had and got to watch it nose dive into the ground. My second model was a beginners model, more of a powered glider. I don't know if submarines are as hard to learn as airplanes were. The lake I am near is 27 feet at it's deepest point, but probably averages about 10. It is a neighborhood lake that allows model boats, but no one has had a submarine there, as far as I know. I live about 2 blocks from the small dock, which is mostly used to launch small paddle boats.

Thanks.

[Ralph --- SSBN 598]

Most people have a misconception about submarines.
How deep will they go. Answer is all the way to the bottom.
However, when running submarines, sight of the boat is usually lost about 2 feet or less depending on water clarity.
More if in a swimming pool which has it's own issues.
3 feet of water is plenty.
Most operations are at periscope depth with maybe a 1/2" above the water and depending on control of your boat.
With the boat at say 3" below the surface and out way from the shore 25 to 30 feet, you may not see you boat and are guessing where it will show up.

There are some nice looking Gatos running.
I see them and think that they would be a good second boat project.
There is a lot of mechanics with that type of boat.

The others you list are good subjects.
Finding a hull or hull kit will be the trick.

The Revell plastic kits will most likely be the least expensive.
I have a Skipjack.
Took me about 3 to 4 days to build the hull kits if you put the time together.
The insides was a bit (whole lot longer) but I tried to put things in it that were seriously optional.
And I paid in time.
I built a mechanical Gizmo the raises and lowers the mast and one for the periscope.
I can also tell you that I started this Gizmo on another boat that turned out to be too small for it.
And the conclusion I came to is, I have done it and I will not do it again.
You can see this project here. Skipjack build

Revell makes or made a Gato plastic kit that many have converted.
The stuff that goes inside has all been worked out with several different systems.
Same with the Skipjack and some of the German submarines.

You might look through the Build section here in this forum and look back several pages.
The builds I am referring to where a few years ago..

[southern or]

The Revell 1/72 Gato is in production right now so this would be the time to at least get one. The RTR systems for it are pricy though. Something that is missing from this conversation is 75mHz. 2.5gHz won't work and 72mHz is air, but 75mHz is getting hard to find.

[JWLaRue]

Ed,

If you are really interested in the USRN Seaview there is an injection molded plastic kit that is put out by Moebuis Models. In fact, they have both the 4 and 8 window versions. This model is just over 38-inches in length. Certainly not nearly as large as the DeBoer hull, but a very nicely sized model.

I think the biggest question that you need to answer for yourself is: do you wish to build the operating internals or buy something that's close to ready-to-run? Given your background in R/C aircraft you probably won't find building a dive module that much of a real challenge. Of course you'll have to decide what kind of ballast system (if any) you'd like to employ and you'll get to learn about making the dive module watertight...yet still have servo pushrod and prop shaft exits.

Have you checked out our "Sub School" web pages? They can provide a bit of an overview of what goes into building one of these subs, including the different types of ballast systems. The Sub School can be found here:

http://www.subcommittee.com/sub101.html

-hope this helps,

Jeff

[JWLaRue]

Oh...even more detailed information can be found in an e-book that SubCommittee member Steve Neill wrote, titled R/C Submarines for Dumbasses. The book can be downloaded here:

http://subcommittee.com/forum/showthread.php?35765-Steve-Neill-s-quot-R-C-Submarines-for-Dumba**es-quot-Download

-Jeff

[EdT3]

Thanks all.

Where do you find 75 mHz controls? I still have a 4 channel controller but it is a 72 mHz from my current airplane. Do you need to get a license for a 75 mHz? I needed one for RC planes but just joined a club and was able to use their club license. Are there other frequencies that will work? I do a lot of designing and programming for industrial machines and use wireless ethernet to connect remote sensors to a controller, maybe something like that is possible for controlling subs? I haven't paid attention to what frequencies those wireless systems use but I will find out tomorrow. And what about Arduino controllers and equipment? Any wireless available for them and at what frequencies? Do European hobbyists have the same problem, or use the same frequency controller?

Once again, thanks for the suggestions. I probably will either buy a Gato model or the Skipjack that Ralph suggested. Are there WTC's available for either or both or would I need to construct one myself?

[salmon]

72 MHz systems can be converted to 75 MHz and you will see ones pop up here and there on eBay and here at SC. The Gigahertz radios will not penetrate water (including 802.1 wireless). There are a few using the 433 MHz range and using Arduino too (need a HAM license for that). The person to talk to is Tim "Mad Scientist" Senecal.
I have both the Gato and the Skipjack. The Skipjack is a much easier build and larger wtc (meaning you are not packing 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound space).
Both subs have systems available. The Gato was my first sub that I built using Revell's model. The Skipjack build was so easy and I kept most of my hair through its build.

[JWLaRue]

Ed,

I can't say I have (ever) heard of a license being required to use a 75MHz R/C system in the U.S. Not sure I've heard of that for 72MHz either! In any case, you should be okay. As to your radio, assuming that 4 channels will be enough, you can have it converted to 75MHz by a licensed FCC technician.

Unfortunately, you'll not be able to leverage wireless Ethernet in the typical 2.4GHz range (or any radios that use that frequency) as the signal does not penetrate water. (certainly nothing beyond about an inch of depth)

We'll want Tim Senecal to weigh in here regarding the use of Arduino as he's done some excellent and extensive work with those. In the meantime please take a look here for some good information on Tim's efforts:

http://subcommittee.com/forum/showthread.php?32640-433mhz-links-and-info-(Tim-s-Regatta-Seminar)

-Jeff

p.s. I see that Tom beat me with answers!

[scott t]

You might plan to attend the Sub Regatta in Carmel Indiana to get a close up of boats and
maybe test drive someone else's sub.

-ScottT

[Guest]

Skipjack is the best starting point for you.

Decent size, but not too big, single screw and good handling apart from sail induced roll- so throttle back on the turns.

It's a fast and agile boat that is fun to drive and looks good. The basic hull kit is cheap, a conversion kit to make it a working sub will add to the cost hugely, but a good one will make getting it to water a much less painless exercise.

If you decide to scratchbuild a system, don't underestimate the underpinning knowledge you will need to acquire to be successful. Most of those who are successful usually come from an engineering background or are mentored 1:1 by someone with plenty of experience in the field. The remainder tend to plug away for a year or two and then give up in frustrated indifference.

[chips]

Ed,

I can't say I have (ever) heard of a license being required to use a 75MHz R/C system in the U.S. Not sure I've heard of that for 72MHz either! In any case, you should be okay. As to your radio, assuming that 4 channels will be enough, you can have it converted to 75MHz by a licensed FCC technician.

-Jeff

Jeff,

His reference to airplane club licensing might be the Academy of Model Aeronautics membership that almost all airplane clubs in the USA enforce. There are a few of us who operate on the 50/53 MHz Ham Radio bands, and we are required to have a current Amatuer Radio License.

[Chuck]

Another vote for the Moebius Skipjack....very easy to build, inexpensive to purchase, and tons of room for a WTC inside. The model kit was designed and developed with a huge amount of input from Dave Merriman, a model maker of vast experience.

[JWLaRue]

Chips,

Good point. I am/was aware of the 50MHz licensing requirement as that frequency can also be used for surface craft as well. Was not aware that the AMA had some sort of club licensing requirement...but do recall that the AMA is very particular about safety.

-tnx!

Jeff